What can FIRST do to increase FRC team sustainability?

[EmileH]

The title says it all, but recently there have been some discussions on CD about whether or not FIRST is doing enough to help existing 1-3 year old teams survive into coming seasons. They are putting a lot of effort into starting new teams but the amount of aid (not just financial aid, but also knowledge and support aid) those rookie teams get after their rookie season can make them unstable and drop out of FIRST after only one year.

So, let's garner up some ideas for how FIRST can help existing teams survive and be sustainable for years to come. Please don't just say "give them more money", as we all know that FIRST does work very hard to supply rookies with extra tools and resources to get them off their feet.

[marshall]

Eliminate bag day.

And with that I'm pretty sure some of you will have finished a bingo card.

[Tim Sharp]

Originally Posted by marshall

Eliminate bag day.

And with that I'm pretty sure some of you will have finished a bingo card.

Doesn't make it untrue though.

It hits on the most obvious way to improve sustainability immediately, reduce the logistical and financial barriers to entry. Bag and tag creates artificially high barriers that are too much to overcome for many teams who operate near the margins.


Without it, we could achieve, IMO, the exact same level of inspiration and probably more technical knowledge due to the fact that the students spend more time in goal oriented activities with a high level of motivation as opposed to learning generalities that may or may not be useful in a given year.

[logank013]

I think team density is the only real way to drive down price. I feel like most of the price issues come from hotels and travel costs rather than registration fees. When looking at Michigan, most teams easily have 2 events (usually more) within driving distance (now registering for those 2 events is a completely different story). This would lower the cost of running a team by a big amount I feel.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by logank013

I think team density is the only real way to drive down price. I feel like most of the price issues come from hotels and travel costs rather than registration fees. When looking at Michigan, most teams easily have 2 events (usually more) within driving distance (now registering for those 2 events is a completely different story). This would lower the cost of running a team by a big amount I feel.

Although that is a factor I don't think that's the issue. In lower NY we have two easily accessible regionals. Yet we still see tons of Long Island and NYC teams die.

The biggest reason I see teams die has nothing to do with funding. It's loss of their primary mentor. I don't think that's really something that can be easily fixed which is a shame.

Many teams do not even put travel towards team expenses. They are the individual expense of the students.

[dk5sm5luigi]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

The biggest reason I see teams die has nothing to do with funding. It's loss of their primary mentor. I don't think that's really something that can be easily fixed which is a shame.

If you solve this then you will solve most of the problems. I have seen many teams with little funding survive because their primary mentor went out of their way to do what ever they needed to keep the team running. You lose that mentor and the team disappears.

This is also a major reason why it is hard to start new teams. You need to find that mentor who is crazy enough to start a team.

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by dk5sm5luigi

If you solve this then you will solve most of the problems. I have seen many teams with little funding survive because their primary mentor went out of their way to do what ever they needed to keep the team running. You lose that mentor and the team disappears.

This is also a major reason why it is hard to start new teams. You need to find that mentor who is crazy enough to start a team.

This and...

Originally Posted by marshall

Eliminate bag day.

And with that I'm pretty sure some of you will have finished a bingo card.

(I can list several ways this can save money and mentor burnout but we've already been over it before... Just think about it seriously please) And of course registration costs in general need to come down.

And

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

This might be the most important step. VEX offers a curriculum that allows school districts to justify assigning a teacher to the program.

One other thing that absolutely needs to happen is just getting a higher percentage of the engineering population involved in the first place. For as much as we talk about getting new people interested in STEM I still run in to countless engineers who don't know about what we do. I think we would be well served by getting more of these people involved.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Although that is a factor I don't think that's the issue. In lower NY we have two easily accessible regionals. Yet we still see tons of Long Island and NYC teams die.

The biggest reason I see teams die has nothing to do with funding. It's loss of their primary mentor. I don't think that's really something that can be easily fixed which is a shame.

Many teams do not even put travel towards team expenses. They are the individual expense of the students.

Here in KC, KC STEM does a great jobs of offering their own build space (team 1775, world division finalist builds there), and trying to give great resources to keep teams running. While I do think that FIRST might be able to help in this way, having regional mentors and build spaces, that are given by the local FIRST chapter can go a long way. I don't know of any other FIRST area, and having them support it would go a long way.

[gblake]

The strongest fortress will crumble in short order if it is built on sand.

Putting strong foundations in place *before* building FRC teams will probably increase the FRC teams' survivability.

Advising potential rookies to walk before running, or even making forming an FRC team the *second* step in a formal multi-season process might be an improvement.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by gblake

The strongest fortress will crumble in short order if it is built on sand.

Putting strong foundations in place *before* building FRC teams will probably increase the FRC teams' survivability.

Advising potential rookies to walk before running, or even making forming an FRC team the *second* step in a formal multi-season process might be an improvement.

We have CSA.
We have Lead Mentors outside of teams.

We should have more training for team mentors.
Perhaps a pool of resources to help specifically support key mentors that are drowning.
It is far too easy to get into something far larger than you think it is.

[hrench]

Originally Posted by marshall

Eliminate bag day.

I'm just Not seeing this helping at all. Bag day is when we stop spending money. During build, we have a burn-rate of hundreds-of-dollars a week. The day we bag is the day that stops. Bag day saves money.

Bag day is when I go home at night and see my family again. I can sustain not eating dinner at home for only so long before they forget my name. Bag day keeps mentors sustainable.

If we built a second-robot after bag day (we normally don't) we would keep designing, building parts and spending money--and building two copies of everything--that would actually cost more than not bagging. But I don't really want that.

If you don't have bag day, can you point to any team that would use that as a reason to Not build a second (or third or fourth) robot? No, those teams will still be doing that.

Also with no bag day, our drivers would practice, practice, practice and get much better than they are. But every hour the robot is moving, something is breaking and though that's going to allow us to improve the robot, it also will cost money.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

The biggest reason I see teams die has nothing to do with funding. It's loss of their primary mentor. I don't think that's really something that can be easily fixed which is a shame.

I think Sperkowsky's comment here breaks into two catagories:

1. Many teams fold after just one or two years. I think money is a big factor for these--when they lose the rookie-team grants, finding money is a big shock. Usually mentors have to find that money.

2. Mentoring is usually fun, but every year there are huge headaches and conflicts between people (other mentors and students). If you have single mentors carrying too many headaches, it's very negative. The rewards of being a mentor have to exceed the negatives. I don't know how you can increase the reward. I think you have to decrease the negatives. Spread them between more people?

Sadly, a team has a life, just like a person and every team is on an arc to someday fold. Just like a company. Just like any organization. If you want to keep a team alive and vital, you just have to plan for the inevitabilities...losing funding, losing build space, losing people. And this planning is hard, sometimes insurmountable.

One solution to a mentor quitting killing a team is that mentors can recruit their replacement before they quit/retire. When I was recruited, it was made clear to me who I was replacing. Every mentor is on an arc to someday leave or retire too. Just like cells in a body, there has to be a plan to replace them.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by hrench

If you don't have bag day, can you point to any team that would use that as a reason to Not build a second (or third or fourth) robot? No, those teams will still be doing that.

I will commit right now that 900 would stop building a copy of a robot and would instead use the resources to help create a second team if we no longer had bag day.

I'll also commit that without bag day we can help more existing teams to program their robots and make bumpers prior to the start of a competition.

[nlknauss]

It takes a few years for a team to form reliable, on-going partnerships with corporate sponsors. It also takes about the same amount of time for teams to create their own structure for spending through the course of a competition year. Having a regional structure in place to work with teams as they develop their programs can be helpful with this whether it is a regional director, FIRST senior mentor, or team of volunteers.

The other side of this is team management and support. There are many ways to do this, but many teams do spend a lot of time in their second and third years thinking about how this should look. A similar support group can be a great deal of help for mentors, teachers, and students on young teams.

Basically, the rookie year isn't the only year a team needs assistance with its formation.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by nlknauss

It takes a few years for a team to form reliable, on-going partnerships with corporate sponsors. It also takes about the same amount of time for teams to create their own structure for spending through the course of a competition year. Having a regional structure in place to work with teams as they develop their programs can be helpful with this whether it is a regional director, FIRST senior mentor, or team of volunteers.

The other side of this is team management and support. There are many ways to do this, but many teams do spend a lot of time in their second and third years thinking about how this should look. A similar support group can be a great deal of help for mentors, teachers, and students on young teams.

Basically, the rookie year isn't the only year a team needs assistance with its formation.

Actually, there is an organization to help with team management and support: FIRST NEMO, the Non-Engineering Mentor Organization for FIRST teams.

FRC teams certainly have business-like components: staffing (students and mentors), finance (fundraising and expenses), facilities (build site, tools, IT, etc.), marketing (PR), and other logistics (transportation, communications, etc.). NEMO's purpose is to provide team with resources to do these things without having to re-invent the wheel.

I strongly recommend teams intending to sustain (or grow) their operations check out NEMO!

[AdamHeard]

Allow regionals to run their own lights and sound, and find a way to pass that savings on to teams. This doesn't have to be in terms of reduced registration for all, but could in grants, etc...

Considering most of CA is running regionals in district venues, it's a bummer that they are forced to raise the additional funds required to pay Show Ready Productions to run the event.

The savings could also be used to build up the fund for the eventual switch to districts (which I would assume is years off due to the difficulty the houston champs date puts on a District champs).