Moving lift to put gear on peg easier

[MikLast]

When the gear is being loaded by the robot on the peg, is the Pilot able to move the Lift up? The idea is to move the lift up a bit to center it where the robot holds the gear to put the gear on the peg easier. From my readings i see nothing explicitly forbidding it, but im still not sure its fully okay. Is there any rules that forbid this?

[6401mark]

In the field videos they made it a huge deal that safety was a priority for human players on the field. I can't imagine they would allow for something like that if the robot and the human are in contact

[RoboChair]

You are correct, as written now it is allowable to move the lift while a robot interacts with it.

[Aidan H.]

I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?

[MikLast]

That thought also came to us as one of our groups talked about the idea. Personally this may be something that does need to be fixed, this could easily mess up someones robot (or a person if things go really wrong) if the LIFT gets yanked away.

[Cal578]

What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by Cal578

What's unsafe about a pilot moving the string a little while a robot attempts to load a gear? It seems to me that the worst that would happen is that the robot jiggles the spring, which transmits some of the jiggle to the string, so the pilot feels some jiggle and maybe loses grip of the string. That doesn't sound dangerous, so I think it makes sense that there's no rule prohibiting it.

at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

[GeeTwo]

Another thing to note is that the "peg" that the robot must place the gear upon is actually a spring, not a solid item. It can presumably be easily deflected up/down/left/right. 3946 currently intends to exploit this feature in our gear hanger.

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by engunneer

at a minimum, if the driver loses grip on the lift handle, it will probably fall outside the porthole, and it would be illegal and unsafe to try to get it back. pilots must be very careful with handles!

FIRST almost always limits cases such that the robot and the human can't be touching game pieces at the same time. since there is a field element in between them, and the pilot is also connected through a flexible element, it may remain as it is currently written. I know it was in our discussion that the pilot would lift the gear out of the robot with the lift, though thinking about it more, that's not a good idea if the pilot is not paying attention.

If the pilot isn't paying attention, they shouldn't be the pilot.

[Aur0r4]

I agree, while FIRST may (and will likely) issue some kind of overly conservative clarification on this issue (and it is a very good question), they idea that this is somehow dangerous is a massive stretch.

I'm a huge proponent of industrial safety and appreciate FIRST having to blend in real world industrial safety standards due to the fact that we are dealing with machines.....they aren't remote controlled bulldozers or mining equipment.

Much of what we must abide by likely originates from insurance requirements, not any eminent source of harm.

[FalconCHief]

Originally Posted by Aidan H.

I combed the rules, and though it emphasizes safety (and this act seems to not be very safe, strictly speaking) it does not lay out any explicit rules for the robot->lift->pilot exchange of the gear, other than it has to come up through the hole.

But of note, in the field walk-through videos it seems to say that "once the pilot has determined that the robot has safely put the gear on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot" (@0:57 here https://youtu.be/ZeOevMTC_rw?t=57s).

What confuses me is that this seems to be a significant hole in the rules, as it's the difference between a mostly passive system and a significantly more complicated active system. Though I would not be surprised if the GDC simply didn't think about it, and adds a rule prohibiting lift movement while a robot is touching the gear on the peg, there is a chance that they intentionally left the rule out to make the gear movement an easier task.

Does anyone else think it will be corrected? If so, doesn't it seems like quite a large rules change? Is there a precedent from previous years for a significant change like this?

The actual quote from the video is: "Once the pilot determines the gear is safely on the peg, they can lift it up and away from the robot." It is a suttle difference but it is there. This quote would indicate to me that the pilot may NOT lift the peg UNTIL the gear safely on it. I don't think anyone can say the gear is safely ON THE PEG if the robot is still trying to manuvre the gear to the peg. AKA: The pilot may NOT lift the peg until the robot has placed the gear on the peg. This does not however clarify if the robot must MOVE from the peg once the gear is 'on' it. It does say "up and way from the ROBOT." This leads me to believe the robot COULD still be in contact with the gear but not moving, while it is on the peg and still be lifted by the pilot.

[FalconCHief]

Also in the airship video the qote is: "Once a gear is on a peg, a pilot operates the lift". Again this would tell me the pilot may NOT operate the lift BEFORE the gear is on it (to assist the robot to place the gear).
@ 2:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1mM_amcQZk


I would NOT design a robot that requires piolt assistance to place the gear.

[GeeTwo]

Reminder to all that video commentary is not rules, and is not even blue boxes. Trying to read additional details into them is pointless.

What's the big deal anyway? The target area is over 6 inches in diameter. Note that it is impossible to get the peg into the hole in the gear designed for the axle; it is too big. You have to use one of the five sector holes. The peg is a spring; minor deflection of the peg can be achieved by pushing it one way or the other.

[FalconCHief]

According to one of our coaches this was in the first update:

The capacity of the Low Efficiency GOAL is seventy (70) FUEL. The capacity of the High Efficiency GOAL is one-hundred and fifty (150) FUEL. FUEL that exceeds GOAL capacities will fall back on to the FIELD.

[FrankJ]

A couple of observations:

Presumably you will try for one of the pie sections on the gear. The actual pie holes on the gear you are aiming for is a lot smaller than 6 inches.

The lift is constrained to vertical movements. The pilots are constraint to staying in the airship & only handling the lift rope when the lift is down. Very little danger with both the pilot and the robot interacting with the lift at the same time. Any rule effecting this will be difficult for the referees to judge. Rules are already there to prevent you from pulling the robot into the airship.

Hopefully the GDC will clarify this. Otherwise the head rererree can at the pre-match driver's meeting.