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Unread 16-01-2017, 16:07
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Will Alliances Win?

Looking back at FRC history, there have been many games where a well-designed robot could effectively win most matches on its own, and only a few where alliances with specialized and effective partners were necessary. The Coopertition Bridge in 2012 seems like a forced effort to get teams to work together, so I'm not counting that. Aside from 2014, I can't think of many games where effective partnerships were super important.

What about this year? It seems possible that we might have actually received a game where the "we-will-do-it-all-ourselves-please-stay-out-of-our-way"robots may not be able to do it all, and where specialized machines in symbiotic partnerships will win more than a do-it-all. I may be wrong in this assessment, and would to hear your points of view.

It's also my opinion that, if the above turns out to be true, it will be an especially bad year for mediocre do-it-alls. My advice to mid-level teams echoes that from a few earlier threads: please don't try to do both major scoring objectives. Do one of them well, and climb. Maybe I'm wrong there too, though.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 16:18
JamesBrown JamesBrown is offline
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
My advice to mid-level teams echoes that from a few earlier threads: please don't try to do both major scoring objectives. Do one of them well, and climb. Maybe I'm wrong there too, though.
This is almost always good advice, many years there has been a lot of value in excelling at one thing, and being a capable contributor for the end game. Perfecting one of the two scoring methods and being able to hang will be enough to be capable of winning almost all district competitions, and most regionals. Balls this year are a linear points system, but it is a slow slope, gears become less valuable after the first 2-3. 3 middle of the road robots that split time between both tasks will not get either extra ranking point.

I expect the top teams will do it all, and do it all effectively. I imagine the elite teams will be able to run a cycle loading a gear and filling up the hopper at the loading station, and/or picking up balls while driving, then unload their gear and empty their balls high faster than above average teams can just pick up and place a gear. The alliances on Einstein will likely have 2 of this type of robot.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 16:18
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

After analyzing the rules of the game very deeply, I have come to the conclusion that alliances will indeed win. In fact, I predict that for every match of FIRST Steamworks, there will be on average, just under 1 winning alliance.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 17:39
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by Poseidon5817 View Post
After analyzing the rules of the game very deeply, I have come to the conclusion that alliances will indeed win. In fact, I predict that for every match of FIRST Steamworks, there will be on average, just under 1 winning alliance.
Do you consider a tie a half a win, cause if so then there will be exactly 1 winning alliance on average lol
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Unread 16-01-2017, 18:19
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by MARS_James View Post
Do you consider a tie a half a win, cause if so then there will be exactly 1 winning alliance on average lol
Tie =/= win
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Unread 16-01-2017, 18:26
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

I'm predicting that there will be less than 10 teams capable of placing 5-6 gears per regional. These teams are definitely going to pick each other, and any robots that can't also place gears and deal with/dish out defense just won't be picked. The 100 point bonus from all rotors turning is way too huge to not have a few extra "insurance" gears in case things go pear shaped. Climbing, unlike last year, is pretty much a must for a first pick. I can see (good) climbers being in short supply after the first round of selections, so I think having a triple climb in district and regional levels is going to be rare and powerful.

I've deliberately left out fuel from the above, and that's because I think most robots will just ignore it entirely in favor of gears during eliminations. People seem to be seriously under estimating the difficulty of getting 12 gears on the airship.

Last edited by Cog : 16-01-2017 at 18:34.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 18:56
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

Last year, many teams could reduce the tower, whether 8 or 10, and cross 4 defenses on their own, and only needed the other 2 bots to mount the batter at the end--not too difficult of a task. So they could get all of the RPs and bonus elim round points on their own.

I don't think that a team will be able to get all 12 gears on their own running standard cycles, and the climb is a bigger factor this year. So alliance mates will be more important in the qualifying rounds. Also coordinating both placing gears and setting up for shots will be more important.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 18:59
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

One other thought--low goal scoring during teleop will be worth very little. It takes 360 low goals to get to 40 kPa. That's time better spent chasing gears if that's the choice a team faces.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 19:23
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by Citrus Dad View Post
One other thought--low goal scoring during teleop will be worth very little. It takes 360 low goals to get to 40 kPa. That's time better spent chasing gears if that's the choice a team faces.
And for that reason I predict defense in this game will play a role like we've never seen before.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 19:47
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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And for that reason I predict defense in this game will play a role like we've never seen before.
Were you around for Aerial Assist?
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Unread 16-01-2017, 19:49
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
Were you around for Aerial Assist?
He joined CD in 2015, so I don't blame him if he wasn't on a team to know the defense present in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2011, or 2014.
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Unread 16-01-2017, 20:02
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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He joined CD in 2015, so I don't blame him if he wasn't on a team to know the defense present in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2011, or 2014.
2015 wasn't a great year to join, at least concerning defense.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 03:07
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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2015 wasn't a great year to join, at least concerning defense.
The best thing that could be said about 2015 was things could only go up from there.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 04:00
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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The best thing that could be said about 2015 was things could only go up from there.
Not true. We saw many things go down from there
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Unread 16-01-2017, 20:47
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Re: Will Alliances Win?

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
He joined CD in 2015, so I don't blame him if he wasn't on a team to know the defense present in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2011, or 2014.
I am quite aware haha. May have been exaggerating slightly

I just think people may be underestimating how big defense will effect matches this year especially in elims. It's just been a long time (if ever, not a game i can think of) since there has been a game with two primary ways to score with only one of them being protected. And the one that is is what some would consider less advantageous.

I think we may see a fuel alliance beat a gear alliance. The distance to travel to collect gears and score them is somewhat large as well as blocked by obstacles. Some of the lifts are somewhat hard to see and the peg is not exactly the biggest target. Mix some or two robots in playing defense I think some interesting things could happen.
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