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Unread 17-01-2017, 11:25
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Why the low Gear love

I'm seeing a lot of discussions on fuel delivery and scoring.
Some discussion on climbing
Very little on delivering gears quickly.

More worryingly, I keep seeing a misconception on the VALUE of gears.
Given that one gear is given to you, in teleop only, the wrong values are:
1st rotor = 40pts/gear
2nd rotor = 20pts/gear
3rd rotor = 10pts/gear
4th rotor = 6.7pts/gear

Many people are forgetting that the 4th rotor is actually:
6.7pts + 1/6 RP in qualifying, also remember that in the high goal 6.7pts take 20fuel
In playoffs these gears are 23.3pts each. 40+100pt bonus. That's 70 fuel in the high goal for each gear or 420 fuel just for the 4th rotor.

Time in two minutes:
worst case (one robot) = 10s/gear
best case (three robots) = 40s/gear

For all the emphasis everyone puts on fuel as the tiebreaker, not many alliances will get 4 rotors going, even in playoffs.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 11:44
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fields View Post
I'm seeing a lot of discussions on fuel delivery and scoring.
Some discussion on climbing
Very little on delivering gears quickly.

More worryingly, I keep seeing a misconception on the VALUE of gears.
Given that one gear is given to you, in teleop only, the wrong values are:
1st rotor = 40pts/gear
2nd rotor = 20pts/gear
3rd rotor = 10pts/gear
4th rotor = 6.7pts/gear

Many people are forgetting that the 4th rotor is actually:
6.7pts + 1/6 RP in qualifying, also remember that in the high goal 6.7pts take 20fuel
In playoffs these gears are 23.3pts each. 40+100pt bonus. That's 70 fuel in the high goal for each gear or 420 fuel just for the 4th rotor.

Time in two minutes:
worst case (one robot) = 10s/gear
best case (three robots) = 40s/gear

For all the emphasis everyone puts on fuel as the tiebreaker, not many alliances will get 4 rotors going, even in playoffs.
These are also not correct point values for gears. You are stating the average value of gears for each rotor assuming the gear set is completed. The following are the exact values for each gear:
  • First gear: 40 points
  • Second gear: 0 points
  • Third gear: 40 points
  • Fourth, fifth, and sixth gears: 0 points
  • Seventh gear: 40 points
  • Eighth through twelfth gears: 0 points
  • Thirteenth gear: (40 points + 1 RP) or 140 points

I think fuel will become a particularly attractive scoring option if an alliance can score more than seven gears but fewer than thirteen gears (or who can accomplish the feat of scoring all 13 of their gears). It doesn't make sense to sink time into a scoring objective that won't yield any points*.

*edit: assuming that the primary objective is to win the match
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Last edited by Brian Maher : 17-01-2017 at 15:40.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 11:48
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Re: Why the low Gear love

I doubt we can do 5 or 6 or 7 gears on our own (and in qualifying, on our own is how we figure matches will go). So, the first three gears are worth 80 points in teleop.

Fuel....high goal....that's equivalent to 240 fuel, eh?

I love the gears.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 11:56
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Re: Why the low Gear love

One thing I think a lot of people overlook is how much the first rotor doesn't matter unless it is done in autonomous. If everyone gets the first rotor free, that means no one really got it free. It artificially raises everyone's score by 40 points. That being said, getting all four rotors will be critical in playoffs because of the huge point swing bonus. If at least two alliances can do that though, it's going to come down to everything else.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 12:07
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Maher View Post
  • First gear: 40 points
  • Second gear: 0 points
  • Third gear: 40 points
  • Fourth, fifth, and sixth gears: 0 points
  • Seventh gear: 40 points
  • Eighth through twelfth gears: 0 points
  • Thirteenth gear: (40 points + 1 RP) or 140 points
If you're talking about teleop, reduce those by one, to account for the reserve gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
I love the gears.
We've known that about you for years.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 13:19
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
I doubt we can do 5 or 6 or 7 gears on our own (and in qualifying, on our own is how we figure matches will go). So, the first three gears are worth 80 points in teleop.

Fuel....high goal....that's equivalent to 240 fuel, eh?

I love the gears.
Given that the reserve gear means every team gets that first 40 point free, if your alliance can't score 6 or more gears in a match, you're spending the ENTIRE MATCH to score +40 points. +60 if you auto the first gear. If you don't have a fuel mechanism and you're figuring you're on your own and can't hit 6 gears, your effective contribution is 2 gears for an entire match.

Which means a fuel bot with the the simplest gear mechanism that scores 2 gears and 9 low fuel beats you. Auto gear gives you a +20 cushion so a fuelbot has to score 2 gears and 63 high fuel to beat you, but still.

A robot with a passive gear mechanism, a successful "drive straight into the lift in front of you" auto and a fuel dumper is probably going to win a surprising amount of quals matches. Even more with a climber, which is looking rather easy.

Unless you expect to be a quite efficient gear bot, you ignore fuel at your peril.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 13:24
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Re: Why the low Gear love

There does seem to be a lot of peril in this game.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 13:42
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
There does seem to be a lot of peril in this game.
Well we're dealing with unguarded open gearing operating right next to pilots and pressure vessels constructed out of HPDE. Peril is probably to be expected.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 13:47
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Re: Why the low Gear love

One way to attempt to overcome the point values that Kevin rightly pointed out is to design a very efficient gears-only bot. A team that can consistently cycle rapidly and get three rotors turning on their own would do alright. This would require a ton of automation and driver practice, but I don't think that the only top-level bots we see will be ball shooters. Someone, somewhere is going to break gears.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 14:28
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
A team that can consistently cycle rapidly and get three rotors turning on their own would do alright. This would require a ton of automation and driver practice, but I don't think that the only top-level bots we see will be ball shooters. Someone, somewhere is going to break gears.
If your alliance partners average even 1 gear each, then 6 gears (enough for 3 rotors) is worth 40 points in qualifications regardless of how many gears the team scores in total. It becomes more valuable in eliminations, if your partners can combine for 6 gears between them.

I think that teams that can average 6 gears a match are probably used to winning competitions. 6 gears seems feasible to me in the drivers station nearest the loading stations as you have a clean view of the loading stations and the peg. In the center and Boiler side drivers stations, you have an obstructed, or partially obstructed view of the loading station. Averaging 6 gears per match will be extremely difficult.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 15:14
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBrown View Post
If your alliance partners average even 1 gear each, then 6 gears (enough for 3 rotors) is worth 40 points in qualifications regardless of how many gears the team scores in total. It becomes more valuable in eliminations, if your partners can combine for 6 gears between them.

I think that teams that can average 6 gears a match are probably used to winning competitions. 6 gears seems feasible to me in the drivers station nearest the loading stations as you have a clean view of the loading stations and the peg. In the center and Boiler side drivers stations, you have an obstructed, or partially obstructed view of the loading station. Averaging 6 gears per match will be extremely difficult.
Averaging 6 gears per match would make you one of the top 5-10 robots in the world. Top robots in 2011 were hanging ~6 tubes on average in teleop. topping out at probably 8. And that was with a more open field, a protected scoring zone, and the ability to sit in the protected zone and grab tubes that were thrown cross field to you.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 17:00
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Re: Why the low Gear love

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Top robots in 2011 were hanging ~6 tubes on average in teleop. topping out at probably 8.
Remember though, in Logomotion most teams stopped what they were doing around the 25 second mark for the minibot races. With climbing happening right next to the gear scoring area and no race to climb to the top first, I think the absence of a break in the scoring momentum will increase that average a little.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 17:02
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_L View Post
Remember though, in Logomotion most teams stopped what they were doing around the 25 second mark for the minibot races. With climbing happening right next to the gear scoring area and no race to climb to the top first, I think the absence of a break in the scoring momentum will increase that average a little.
Adding 10s isn't going to increase the average throughput by an additional gear.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 17:14
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_L View Post
Remember though, in Logomotion most teams stopped what they were doing around the 25 second mark for the minibot races. With climbing happening right next to the gear scoring area and no race to climb to the top first, I think the absence of a break in the scoring momentum will increase that average a little.
There's also the fact that teleop is 15 seconds longer in Steamworks than it was in Logomotion.
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Unread 17-01-2017, 17:21
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Re: Why the low Gear love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Averaging 6 gears per match would make you one of the top 5-10 robots in the world. Top robots in 2011 were hanging ~6 tubes on average in teleop. topping out at probably 8. And that was with a more open field, a protected scoring zone, and the ability to sit in the protected zone and grab tubes that were thrown cross field to you.
Others brought up good points but one huge factor is that making an effective gear scorer is arguably a lot easier to make than making something that scores tubes at tall various heights(and sometimes over another already placed tube). I think the shear reduction in the barrier of entry will make 6 gear averages a lot more common. Maybe I'm wrong and most regionals will be decided on gears alone but I hope that I'm not.
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