Go to Post ...and that is exactly why Dave is the coolest nerd I know. - Rich Kressly [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 12:01
Turing'sEgo Turing'sEgo is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Boulder
Posts: 48
Turing'sEgo is on a distinguished road
What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

For those that were around pre 2012, think back to the state of the average team's ability. What was it missing that is common today? Machine vision.

Then 2012 happened. 341 happened. They caught everyone's attention with their closed loop control for aiming at the high basket. They showed that it can be done, and done well at that.

Fast forward to now. We have ni vision, we have grip, we have team 900 who used the same technology in self driving cars in 2016. While having some form of machine vision is not quite the norm, it is trending to be that way.

So, what do you think the next technical leap frc will experience?
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 12:36
EricLeifermann's Avatar
EricLeifermann EricLeifermann is offline
That was a short break
FRC #2826 (Wave Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,071
EricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond reputeEricLeifermann has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

it wasn't so much a technical leap, but wide, varied, and inexpensive COTS gearboxes and the versa planetary are what has had the biggest impact in growth for teams. Very few teams use vision, EVERY team uses gearboxes.

The next technical growth aspect is going to be something that raises the floor for everyone, not just those with an interest.
__________________
2002-2005 Appleton East High School: Team 93
2005-2011 Michigan Technological University: Team 857
2012-Present Wave Robotics Team 2826



Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 12:37
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,792
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

I don't think this is a super accurate version of the events.

To some extent, machine vision has been a thing since 2006 - teams used cameras effectively that year for the high goal.

The main reason camera tracking was not a thing in 2009 was the new control system combined with the moving, non-lit target. Teams certainly did use camera tracking to some extent, but often / usually, manual tracking was faster.

In 2010 and 2011, your robot started in a known location facing a stationary goal, so what was the camera even for?

In 2012, a similar argument applied, but when teams started moving around the camera got beneficial. The rules also opened up to start allowing coprocessors sometime before 2012 which was a big help. 341 was a notable, highly visible example of camera tracking, certainly, and they had an effect, but I think it's a bit simplifying and disingenuous to suggest that camera tracking wasn't taken seriously until 341 demonstrated it being used effectively.

In 2013 and 2014, see 2010 and 2011. 2015 doesn't count.

So 2016 was really the only opportunity since 2012 for camera tracking to be an advantage. You had to cross defenses before shooting which made the physical position of the robot on the field not nearly as certain. This is why you saw a lot more cameras for autonomous that year - as well as flashlights for teleop.

So really, the use of cameras is much more driven by the game than by the coolest example of it from a particular year - and cameras have been an available option to FRC teams in one way or another for many, many years. There certainly was a dramatic shift in capability between the pre-2009 CMUcam and the 2009 NI system, as well as a shift in 2012 the first year coprocessors were allowed when a camera was a potential advantage. But camera use is really a response to the conditions of the game more than anything else.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 12:41
JohnSchneider's Avatar
JohnSchneider JohnSchneider is offline
Registered User
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Dallas
Posts: 779
JohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond reputeJohnSchneider has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

My guess is that soon, everyone will see the merit of a 4-axis self-controlled robot arm on their robot.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 13:05
Jonathan Norris Jonathan Norris is offline
Jno
FRC #0610 (Crescent Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,082
Jonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchneider View Post
My guess is that soon, everyone will see the merit of a 4-axis self-controlled robot arm on their robot.
We tried that back in 2007 didn't go well for us either

I believe the real leap in vision processing has come in the form of cheap Android phones that are incredible powerful with great cameras on them, props to 254 for leading the way. The tracking frame-rate and ease of development you can get from building vision in an Android app is way ahead of any other co-processor/on-board vision processing I've seen. I'd love to see some common tools develop around this, the communication between the App and the Rio can be tricky right now.

It would be awesome to see every kit include a powerful $200 Android phone with some standard tools to do vision processing with.
__________________
Co-Founder of Taplytics.com
2013 World Champions (1241, 1477, 610)
Crescent Robotics Team 610 Mentor
K-Botics Team 2809 Founding Mentor ('09-'11)
Queen's University Mechanical Engineering, Applied Science '11

Crescent Robotics Team 610 Alumni
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 13:17
mastachyra's Avatar
mastachyra mastachyra is offline
Registered User
FRC #2781 (RoboPride)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 251
mastachyra is just really nicemastachyra is just really nicemastachyra is just really nicemastachyra is just really nice
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

How about linear actuation? Of course pneumatics have been used forever, but these electric actuators are starting to pop up. They allow you linear motion without the weight of an entire pneumatics system.

The DART actuators last year and now REV has their hi power servos and AndyMark offers their linear servo.

I'd like to see the VersaPlanetary adapted for linear motion. It would provide a smaller footprint than the DART actuators with sufficient power to do many things on FRC robots. The multiple gearing options would continue to make this versatile as well.
__________________
2014: EtaBot - MWR/30th place/no PO
2015: ThetaBot - MWR/30th place/no PO, R2OC/Winners, IndyRAGE 5th Alliance, WMRI QF
2016: IotaBot - MWR/16th place/QF, R2OC/7th Alliance Captain/QF, Boiler Bot Battle/6th place/Finalist
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 14:19
iyportne's Avatar
iyportne iyportne is offline
A Life Spent Reversing Entropy
AKA: B. Page
FRC #1533 (Triple Strange)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 48
iyportne is on a distinguished road
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

I look at this a bit more philosophically...there is a great deal of technology out there that the average team knows about or has access to with ...(fill in your favorite search engine)...but the issue is and has always been how to replicate something on a team budget, max component value of $400, CAW max of $4000, or access to advanced manufacturing methods. I think the next leap forward will depend on whatever industry drives the price down on or whatever mass sponsorship resources start popping up.

I agree that the next most probable advance will be in motion control. We are already seeing integrated industrial linear and rotary servo motion falling below $400 and at power and load ratings useful to FRC teams. We are also seeing industrial and tech sponsors catching FIRST fever, from both philanthropic and smart leveraged marketing reasons, giving more manufacturing resources to local and global teams. Also, more teams are embracing CAD and modelling to accelerate the prototyping and design process.

So, my prediction is that the next wave, though less obvious and harder to measure, will be that the average team will make big leaps in build-to-print or build-to-model robot designs. We will see more off-the-shelf technology being integrated into designs as prices fall, and more CNC, laser or water-jet cut parts on the average robot. With social media and the HUGE repository of robot designs, robot reveals and match play videos, the need for testing specifics will decrease. I already see all of this happening in our district, and suspect that this will continue to grow.
__________________


2016 | NC District Awards - Creativity x2, Industrial Design, Innovation in Control
2016 | NC District - Campbell University Winner, District Championship Winner, THOR Winner
2016 | Carson/Galileo - Creativity Award
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 13:10
chandrew's Avatar
chandrew chandrew is offline
Strategy Sun Tzu
AKA: Andrew Chan
FRC #1410 (The Kraken)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 42
chandrew is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchneider View Post
My guess is that soon, everyone will see the merit of a 4-axis self-controlled robot arm on their robot.
By far my favorite 2015 design.
__________________
Andrew Chan
Dean's List Semi-Finalist 2016
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 14:04
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,758
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchneider View Post
My guess is that soon, everyone will see the merit of a 4-axis self-controlled robot arm on their robot.
Or maybe ramps on your robot for other robots to drive on top of.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-02-2017, 14:11
Matt_Boehm_329 Matt_Boehm_329 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0329
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Long Island
Posts: 92
Matt_Boehm_329 has a spectacular aura aboutMatt_Boehm_329 has a spectacular aura about
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Smaller, inexpensive water jet cutters that can cut 48x48x.25in aluminum to .001 in accuracy at 100 in/min for less than $1000 and a tech grant to get one in KoP
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2017, 11:19
Brian C's Avatar
Brian C Brian C is offline
Doer of Whatever
AKA: Brian Cholerton
FRC #1468 (J-Birds)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Islip Terrace Long Island-NY
Posts: 329
Brian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant futureBrian C has a brilliant future
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329 View Post
Smaller, inexpensive water jet cutters that can cut 48x48x.25in aluminum to .001 in accuracy at 100 in/min for less than $1000 and a tech grant to get one in KoP

YESSssssssss!
__________________
2017 Season; Game Announcer at

SBPLI Long Island Regional
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2017, 11:31
mrnoble's Avatar
mrnoble mrnoble is offline
teacher/coach
FRC #1339 (Angelbotics)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: denver, co
Posts: 991
mrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian C View Post
YESSssssssss!
+1
__________________
http://www.angelbotics.com

Remember why you're doing this.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2017, 11:39
mrnoble's Avatar
mrnoble mrnoble is offline
teacher/coach
FRC #1339 (Angelbotics)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: denver, co
Posts: 991
mrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond reputemrnoble has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

The three biggest advances in the last six years or so are:
  1. COTS frame and gusset options that allow significant customization
  2. COTS gearboxes that are compact, reliable and provide many options
  3. The smaller and more robust control system elements, including the RoboRio and motor controllers

Swerve-in-a-box for less than $100/module, requiring nothing other than attachment to standard VF to make a drivebase, would change mobility. I think that's coming.
__________________
http://www.angelbotics.com

Remember why you're doing this.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2017, 13:02
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,081
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
The three biggest advances in the last six years or so are:
  1. COTS frame and gusset options that allow significant customization
  2. COTS gearboxes that are compact, reliable and provide many options
  3. The smaller and more robust control system elements, including the RoboRio and motor controllers

Swerve-in-a-box for less than $100/module, requiring nothing other than attachment to standard VF to make a drivebase, would change mobility. I think that's coming.
I don't think you'll ever see sub $100. I mean, two VersaPlanetaries are like $150, add a wheel and some extra structure, I'd be happy with $200-250 range just because of how many parts they are.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-02-2017, 13:15
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,792
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: What will be the next technical growth leap for the average team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
The three biggest advances in the last six years or so are:
  1. COTS frame and gusset options that allow significant customization
  2. COTS gearboxes that are compact, reliable and provide many options
  3. The smaller and more robust control system elements, including the RoboRio and motor controllers

Swerve-in-a-box for less than $100/module, requiring nothing other than attachment to standard VF to make a drivebase, would change mobility. I think that's coming.
If your team doesn't have the fundraising / organizational resources to afford the current COTS swerve modules, the team may not have the software / organizational resources to get a test bed done early enough and thoroughly programmed for effective use. Basically, I think we are already at the point where the limiting factor is software capability.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi