A FIRST Warning From VA

[Joe Matt]

As anyone in Richmond area can attest to, we are in trouble with FIRST. MAJOR trouble. We hare around 7 teams in less than a 30 mile radius, and we arn't a very huge city nor a big technology industry. We are suffering.

One of 384's main sponsors folded this summer, and quite a few other team sponsors are dropping like flies. Many funds are now dry that used to contribute money, and many teams have nothing this year.

Why am I saying this? Because I want to warn you. While FIRST growth is needed, not like this. I'm not surprised if a few teams fold this year, that's how bad it is. PLEASE don't follow our mistake. PLEASE don't expand to the breaking point. Consolidate teams, pool funds. PLEASE do it. PLEASE.

I'm deathly afraid that FIRST's downfall will be it's own expansion and high prices. Please FIRST and the FIRST Community, listen to our problems. I doubt that this will be the last problem here.

[Bill Gold]

Can you merge a few teams together for a year or so, and try to secure enough funding to eventually spin them off as their original team? This is a good way to keep schools involved in FIRST when they're about to fold. It's also a good way to cut costs drastically (2 teams entering one event each costs $10,000 total, whereas one team comprised of two different teams attending 1 event costs $5,000 or even attending 2 events costs $9,000. ). Just a thought. Good luck.

[Erin Rapacki]

Similar thing happend in Boston, there was a rookie team from the Roxbury last year. This year, they merged with the BU team so they can secure funding and interest. I think it would be very benificial to the FIRST program to think of quality and not quantity when it comes to the amount of teams involved. The point of FIRST is to get as many STUDENTS involved as who want to be, not to have thousands of suffering, understaffed teams.

[ChrisH]

In the Southern California area, the teams in SCRRF made a deliberate decision not to pursue new rookie teams this year. A few are starting anyway, but we didn't go out of our way to drag them in. We felt it was better to work on the foundation of our existing teams and strengthen them. Once most current teams are fairly stable, and we have adequate support for the Southern California Regional, then we will pursue rookies again. Besides, it's not like we had to work hard to fill our regional slots.

Sometimes it pays to rest and consolidate your gains.

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Erin Rapacki
The point of FIRST is to get as many STUDENTS involved as who want to be, not to have thousands of suffering, understaffed teams.

I've always wondered how those teams with 150 kids can possibly function. Even on the teams i've been with (25 people or less) it dwindles down to a core group of maybe 8. I don't think FIRST has any effect whatsoever if you've got an engineer and five kids building a robot and 100 groupies.

I remember back in 2001 we started a FIRST team in Hartford and another team offered to let us join. They said "maybe your kids will get on some key committees or something, we'll see" but it sounded to me like they just wanted us to watch and learn.

We didn't take the offer because we weren't willing to invest the time and effort on a team if the only thing we got to do was make t-shirts. Yes, FIRST involves all sorts of non-engineering jobs, but there are a hell of a lot better, more interesting, more creative and less expensive ways for kids to get experience in video, business, creative writing, than a robotics competition. Besides, how do you inspire kids by saying "Yeah, we want you to work on this great project, but we don't want you to actually work on it, we want you to sit around and watch us work on it, and if you're really lucky we'll let you use the button maker."

Here's an example: last year I suggested a controversial strategy and was promptly flamed to a crisp. The leader of one large, well-established team said something along the lines of "what am I supposed to tell the engineers I've got sleeping on the floor for weeks..." I was curious how much student involvement was possible on a team where engineers were literally sleeping on the floor, so I made it a point to check that team out at nationals. I spoke to several students and they all told me the same thing "we didn't get to do anything or learn anything, we just talked for awhile and one day they showed up to a meeting with a robot." The students were uniformly frustrated with their team and felt that they got nothing out of the program other than a line on a resume. The adult mentors I spoke to were oblivious.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't important HOW many students you've got involved, its what they do, what they learn and how they feel about the program that matters. Those thousands of understaffed struggling teams may not produce the best robots and they probably won't win too many chairman's awards but I think that they give kids a much better experience than the big teams.

I'm not trying to attack big teams or their leaders, many of them are very good people. I just want to say that as the leader of one of those "understaffed, struggling teams" I think we provide a pretty good experience.

[Madison]

Originally posted by Gabriel
I've always wondered how those teams with 150 kids can possibly function. Even on the teams i've been with (25 people or less) it dwindles down to a core group of maybe 8. I don't think FIRST has any effect whatsoever if you've got an engineer and five kids building a robot and 100 groupies.

Your post addresses two issues, but the second has been beaten to death twice.

I don't think it's our place to determine who benefits from FIRST or how they benefit. If people are making a commitment to be there, in whole or in part, as groupies or something else entirely, that's their prerogative. Just because we don't understand the potential benefit this program is having on them because they're not just like us doesn't mean that it's not having a benefit.

[KenWittlief]

I emphasize with Joseph M about the loss of support for teams in your area. I can understand why you are upset.

I dont think its fair to any sponsor to expect them to continue to support a FIRST team for more than one year at a time.

For a corporate sponsor being involved with a FIRST team is a community service, a way to give something back to the people in your area, a way to invest in your future.

But we have to accept that individual companies dont always prosper, dont always make a profit - some dont even stay in business!

If you have a corporate sponsor this year, be thankfull and gratefull, and hope for the best for next year. I dont see any reason to be upset with FIRST for allowing the program to expand too fast, allowing too many new teams

?!

how could FIRST possibly tell a company that wants to be a sponsor no! ? Would we demand that they put up money for 3 or 5 years before we allow them to start a team? Would we hold them responsible to find a replacement sponsor if they are no longer able?

Ive seen several corporations over the years go through a downturn, and lay off MANY employees, and still keep sponsoring their FIRST team. In fact I know of one that kept its team under wraps, kept it secret as much as they could (no media coverage, ect) so that people who had lost their jobs would not have to deal with the idea of the company spending money on highschool students, instead of keeping them on as employees.

If a high school and a sponsor are able to get together for one year, and have a team for one year, I think thats wonderful. If they are not able to do it again the following year, that will not take away anything from the experience those students had when they were on the team.

There are no guarentees in life. Cherish what you have while you have it. None of us knows what tomorrow will bring.

[Amanda Morrison]

Dean may have asked that every high school in America be involved with FIRST, but he never said they all had to have separate high schools.

[SarahB]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Besides, how do you inspire kids by saying "Yeah, we want you to work on this great project, but we don't want you to actually work on it, we want you to sit around and watch us work on it, and if you're really lucky we'll let you use the button maker."

That can be a problem on any team, big or small. I know some teams with 25 people on the whole team, and even fewer(<15) at each meeting who work that way. They believe that one should just watch and "learn" until he/she has been on the team for a few years. I don't really agree with this strategy, but it isn't just limited to big teams.

[Gary Dillard]

Our mentors have debated these questions before, as to splitting up and sponsoring a rookie team, or combining resources with the nearest team. Some background:

Team 180 (SPAM) is in Martin County, FL where there are only 2 high schools, 15 minutes drive apart (3 next year) and no single big company for a sponsor. We have been supported by UTC/Pratt & Whitney since the beginning - they are the largest employer around but they are located in Palm Beach County to the south. The local P&W plant has faithfully sponsored 2 teams (Swamp Thing in Palm Beach County is the other) each year, even though employment has gone from about 8000 7 years ago to probably less than 1000 now since the engine business moved to Hartford. Most of the engineers on the team worked at Pratt at one time and now work elsewhere locally.

I believe that our sponsorship continues because of enthusiastic support from specific managers both locally and at UTC corporation (Dr. John Cassidy whom I saw at Nationals) who believe in the FIRST program. You've got to have a champion at the sponsor.

We aggressively pursue other sponsors and community support to keep growing the program, and each year we make critical decisions before all the funding is in place (as most teams do). But our decisions always have one focus - how do we reach the most kids with our available resources.

I must admit I'm jealous of the big teams who have engineers and machinists paid to support FIRST during the seaon. We don't have that luxury - we have a limit to our available time and take vacation days and it puts a pretty heavy burden on our families. So even if money wasn't a limit, manpower would be. There's no way we could support more than 1 team here, but we can sure reach more kids and we make every effort to do that. Our team is about 50/50 between the 2 schools and that's been true every year.

Splitting into 2 teams to get "credit" for growth is the wrong type of growth, as would creating a rookie team at the new school instead of including them with us. I think we've had the right balance - splitting the team would get us below critical mass for an inspirational program; combining resources with Swamp Thing would put too much strain on the kids in travel. We've grown each year and reached as many kids as possible.

Focus on the kids, not the teams.

[Tytus Gerrish]

Originally posted by Gary Dillard
Our mentors have debated these questions before, as to splitting up and sponsoring a rookie team, or combining resources with the nearest team. Some background:

Team 180 (SPAM) is in Martin County, FL where there are only 2 high schools, 15 minutes drive apart (3 next year) and no single big company for a sponsor. We have been supported by UTC/Pratt & Whitney since the beginning - they are the largest employer around but they are located in Palm Beach County to the south. The local P&W plant has faithfully sponsored 2 teams (Swamp Thing in Palm Beach County is the other) each year, even though employment has gone from about 8000 7 years ago to probably less than 1000 now since the engine business moved to Hartford. Most of the engineers on the team worked at Pratt at one time and now work elsewhere locally.

I believe that our sponsorship continues because of enthusiastic support from specific managers both locally and at UTC corporation (Dr. John Cassidy whom I saw at Nationals) who believe in the FIRST program. You've got to have a champion at the sponsor.

We aggressively pursue other sponsors and community support to keep growing the program, and each year we make critical decisions before all the funding is in place (as most teams do). But our decisions always have one focus - how do we reach the most kids with our available resources.

I must admit I'm jealous of the big teams who have engineers and machinists paid to support FIRST during the seaon. We don't have that luxury - we have a limit to our available time and take vacation days and it puts a pretty heavy burden on our families. So even if money wasn't a limit, manpower would be. There's no way we could support more than 1 team here, but we can sure reach more kids and we make every effort to do that. Our team is about 50/50 between the 2 schools and that's been true every year.

Splitting into 2 teams to get "credit" for growth is the wrong type of growth, as would creating a rookie team at the new school instead of including them with us. I think we've had the right balance - splitting the team would get us below critical mass for an inspirational program; combining resources with Swamp Thing would put too much strain on the kids in travel. We've grown each year and reached as many kids as possible.

Focus on the kids, not the teams.

:Tear: I love you Pratt&Whitney

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Amanda Morrison
Dean may have asked that every high school in America be involved with FIRST, but he never said they all had to have separate high schools.

Exactly. I don't think there's enough corporate support for every high school in America to have its own team, but I think there is enough for every high school to have a local team its students can be a part of. There may come a point (and it has apparently come in some areas) where teams will need to branch out to include more schools and students, rather than starting completely new teams.

[KenWittlief]

I disagree - once you have a local regional you can have a team for less than $10,000 a year

for a business that is not a lot of money. Im sure there are far more businesses in any given area than there are highschools.

If not then you really NEED FIRST in your area! :^)

[tsaksa]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

I disagree - once you have a local regional you can have a team for less than $10,000 a year

for a business that is not a lot of money. Im sure there are far more businesses in any given area than there are highschools.

If not then you really NEED FIRST in your area! :^)

Actually $10,000 is a lot of money. Quite a lot of money. Our team has spent many long hard months doing car washes, light bulb sales at a variety of venues, other fund raising events, restaurant fund raisers, etc. We have also had the students out tracking down and following up on just about any source for donations, grants, etc. The students and adult volunteers are worn out worn out from all the fund raising and yet at this point we only have approximately $5000 raised for the year. That is enough for registration at one event, but nothing else. No spare parts, no supplies, no tools, no extras of any kind.

Our fund raising efforts are ongoing, but at this point we will probably not be working with much more. There was a time when we got some financial support from the school district, and that made things easier. But at this point we are lucky to have our school supply some space for meetings. We also used to get more cooperate sponsorship, but most local companies have dropped all support and it takes a lot of work to raise even $5000 if most of your corporate donations are less than $100. I wish we were a town with have a JC Penny or other company that supports FIRST, but for now we need to just chase as many small donations as we can. The economy is tight and in some areas there is just not a lot of money available.

Still, I would hate to see our team decide to merge with another local high school. I know if that happened many of the students would just have no way of making it to meetings on a regular basis and would drop out of the program. I know there are companies that really understand FIRST and are willing to make a significant contribution. There are also locations where fund raising events can solicit a more significant response. But please do not assume these opportunities exist for most of the teams out there.

[North Sailor]

This thread raises some very key points.

To give some level of summary, the critical components which contribute to the FIRST experience include:

1. Students
2. Sponsors
3. Mentors

I think we can all agree that we would like to see as many students have the opportunity available to them to participate in a FIRST program in their community. Considering that agreement, students are not the limiting factor towards growth for FIRST.

Sponsorship has become significantly harder to secure for many teams, both in rural, suburban, and urban areas. Companies have cut back, though many do still maintain a high level of commitment to the FIRST program and the services it offers. It is veyr true that with a local regional it can be possible to build and compete with a simple robot for around $10,000. This sum of money, though not small, is significantly smaller than the many teams whose annual opperating budgets exceed $40,000. Ultimately from the discussion on money, we can conclude that though operating at a higher budget is becoming more difficult, we seem to somehow survive by cutting back on projects, and sharing resources within our areas.

The fundamental limiting factor that I wish to raise on the subject of new teams and the growth of FIRST in geographic areas which are already dense with team participation is the topic of mentorship. Industry mentors are critical to the success of a team, and the inspiration of students. It isnt that our teachers are bad, but they need help and often times do not have the hands-on engineering experience to lead the design and construction of an FRC robot. Mentors are absolutely critical and I think if you talked to any FIRST team mentor they will tell you just how much time they dedicate to the program (whether sponsored by work or not). The problem with so many new teams is that there are not enough active mentors able to support them.

This sentiment is shared with first hand experience. I am a mentor for ILITE Robotics (1885) and Herndon High School Robotics (116) in Northern VA. As has already been said, yes we are much better off in the DC area than other areas with FIRST due to the high number of engineering companies and government contracting ($$) BUT this year resources have become more tight and the persistance of several local teams at starting new rookie teams as opposed to opening their team to numerous high schools has split valuable sponsorship and spread the critical mentorship thin.

Gary Dillard said it perfectly:

Splitting into 2 teams to get "credit" for growth is the wrong type of growth, as would creating a rookie team at the new school instead of including them with us.

If a team is looking to promote growth for FIRST, I would recommend looking towards setting up ladder programs such as FLL and FTC and opening your teams doors to students in your entire community. FLL and FTC are WAY cheaper, and operate with systems which are much easier for non-engineering parents to become involved.

PLEASE: Heed this warning, and understand good mentors are even harder to find than sponsors. (So go thank your mentors... I know I do every day)