A Horrible Idea

[generalbrando]

I had a horrible idea for a strategy and I haven't seen the idea fully discussed anywhere, so I wanted to put it on here and hope that most everyone would agree that this would be a horrible thing to do!

I think on the Q+A board on FIRST's site someone asked if we can block the view of the drivers. And there's a discussion now about blocking the ball chutes. I could imagine a robot being able to do both. It would essentially stop the other team from being able to compete!

You're all going to say "but you get the losers score!" I know, but the score doesn't matter in the finals! (If you win it doesn't anyway) If you go into the finals as a top seed and you pick a bot that can disable the other alliance and then let you do whatever you want, then you would win.

I know this bot would be hard to design and I'm sure that it would receive some damange. But don't say it can't be done! Even if it's just not feasible - pretend it is for the fun of the discussion.

[Jessica Boucher]

Though it does sound really cool for a finals robot, I wouldn't want to bet my entire season on being picked.

Building a robot to be picked is very nervewracking - just ask the majority of teams in 2001 (not yourself, though, since youre from Hammond and they dominated in 01 :-P). It's a lot of emotions to go through during alliance selection, a lot of selling your team to other people and being in the right place at the right time.

So, I'd rather be seeding well than selling myself. But it's still a cool idea. Gold star for creative thinking!

[Mr. Ivey]

Voice of expirence here, don't try and control the game. Team 384, my team, tried this in 2001 with Sparky v3.0, it won many design awards, but failed in competition. So don't try and control the game, you will get burned. with big arms, comes leverage that can be used against you. Do one thing and do that one thing well. Just if you try to cover the drivers, you will get burned, and throw in control over the corrals, you have arms to bend, torque, and destroy. Just heed the warning.
Ivey

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ivey

Voice of expirence here, don't try and control the game. Team 384, my team, tried this in 2001 with Sparky v3.0, it won many design awards, but failed in competition. So don't try and control the game, you will get burned. with big arms, comes leverage that can be used against you. Do one thing and do that one thing well. Just if you try to cover the drivers, you will get burned, and throw in control over the corrals, you have arms to bend, torque, and destroy. Just heed the warning.
Ivey

It was 2002 Mark, not 2001. 2001 we played the game, and did it well.

[bigqueue]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ivey

Voice of expirence here, don't try and control the game. Team 384, my team, tried this in 2001 with Sparky v3.0, it won many design awards, but failed in competition. So don't try and control the game, you will get burned. with big arms, comes leverage that can be used against you. Do one thing and do that one thing well. Just if you try to cover the drivers, you will get burned, and throw in control over the corrals, you have arms to bend, torque, and destroy. Just heed the warning.
Ivey

But then again, if you are going to "control the game", you had better really do it and not think you will.

I am thinking of a robot two years ago called "BEAST" that basically fell down, extended two huge arms and "inched" its way forward, collecting all three goals, muscling them to the scoring zone.

It was slow, but it was very powerful. It was "out-played" in several matches, but I would say that 80% of the matches I watched, it did its job with great consistancy.

If I recall, it was on the winning alliance, and it ended up playing in every match of the finals except the last one (or two) because it had been damaged in a prior game.

Like I said....if you want to dominate, you had better to it well....and it is possible.

-Quentin

[Mr. Ivey]

Originally Posted by bigqueue

I am thinking of a robot two years ago called "BEAST" that basically fell down, extended two huge arms and "inched" its way forward, collecting all three goals, muscling them to the scoring zone.

It was slow, but it was very powerful. It was "out-played" in several matches, but I would say that 80% of the matches I watched, it did its job with great consistancy.

-Quentin

Yes, that's what Moe, and Sparky 3 both did as well. And they could push the 3 goals that year. But in the end at the final matches, both bots started falling apart on the field... But honestly look at the physics, of it, your arms could be used against you when trying to cover the corrals. It's just not the most sound idea. Also yes you can try to control the field, it's not impossible, but improbable of it working. Just look at the physics.
Ivey

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ivey

Yes, that's what Moe, and Sparky 3 both did as well. And they could push the 3 goals that year. But in the end at the final matches, both bots started falling apart on the field... But honestly look at the physics, of it, your arms could be used against you when trying to cover the corrals. It's just not the most sound idea. Also yes you can try to control the field, it's not impossible, but improbable of it working. Just look at the physics.
Ivey

Geeze, Mark do your research before hand!

The robot talking about was Beaty, 71. They won the 2002 Nats with that bot, so it can be done, but don't count on it working very well.

[bigqueue]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ivey

Yes, that's what Moe, and Sparky 3 both did as well. And they could push the 3 goals that year. But in the end at the final matches, both bots started falling apart on the field... But honestly look at the physics, of it, your arms could be used against you when trying to cover the corrals. It's just not the most sound idea. Also yes you can try to control the field, it's not impossible, but improbable of it working. Just look at the physics.
Ivey

Perhaps it "could" be used against it....but the robot I am talking about in fact dominated the games it played in and in fact was on the team that won the nationals.

It was truely a fantastic thing to watch. (I think you are talking about another robot???)

[KenWittlief]

I think the first time you used it, it would work

but after that element of surprize was gone

let me back up a little - there has always been the concept of 'attacking' and 'incidental contact' in FIRST. If you are trying to score or achieve a positional advantage and another bot is in your way, or going to be in your way, then its OK to push, shove, ram that bot to get it out of your way, or to prevent it from blocking you

but you cant just go around ramming opponents bots just to ram them

bumping each other (incidental contact) while playing is ok, attacking is not.

So after the other teams know what you are going to do:

a. you would have to get past their bot in auton mode somehow and
b. once play started, since you have that 'curtain of doom' on your machine you would be fair game to be slammed, rammed, attacked, bashed... for the entire duration of the match by the opponent to prevent you from deploying your curtain

if you plan to do this, bring some salt - after the 2nd round your bot will be a pretzel! :c)

[animater31405]

My thing is, because of rule 7.3.6(or something like that), you should royally spank your opponent in at least one match and get a really high score for yourself.

[KenWittlief]

to defeat your curtain-of-doom strateejury all I have to do is keep my most rugged alliance bot against the wall in auton mode - to block my view you have to get past my bot

as soon as you try to deploy the (relatively flimsy) curtain your bot will get a severe beating :c)

[Guyute]

This isn't really a horrible idea...if you think about it. Lets say that at a regional cometition you compete in 17 matches...now if you block the chutes and you win ALL of your matches...the QP points don't matter because your the only team that would be 17-0. Therefore you would be 1st place. Now the down fall to this would be that your other allience partners wouldn't like to win a shut out because that would hurt their score. The best way to go about making a robot that could do this would have some heavy metal wall that would cover a good percentage of the whole and a long cord that would connect to your robot that is guarding the other human player chute. if i can find a scoring spread sheet and prove that your win % will become greater if you do it...then i think doing this is a HUGE key to the game.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Guyute

This isn't really a horrible idea...if you think about it. Lets say that at a regional cometition you compete in 17 matches...now if you block the chutes and you win ALL of your matches...the QP points don't matter because your the only team that would be 17-0. Therefore you would be 1st place. Now the down fall to this would be that your other allience partners wouldn't like to win a shut out because that would hurt their score. The best way to go about making a robot that could do this would have some heavy metal wall that would cover a good percentage of the whole and a long cord that would connect to your robot that is guarding the other human player chute. if i can find a scoring spread sheet and prove that your win % will become greater if you do it...then i think doing this is a HUGE key to the game.

Theoretically, yes, but practically, no. The chances of you blocking a 6 foot area totally without interference is little to none. We thought we could push all the goals into our area in 2002 and win every match. It didn't work. Faster, smaller, robots could come and screw everything up.

You build to play the game, not to control it. We've learned the hard way, don't become a victim.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

that be one mad fly idear d00d... u could have like a 20 foot long foldable lexan shield..so they can see what they want to shoot at, but they cant...its like a tease

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Jessica Boucher

So, I'd rather be seeding well than selling myself. But it's still a cool idea. Gold star for creative thinking!

A full defensive robot can seed 1st in this competition.

All you need to do is go 8-0.

So, the above strategy (if legal) could potentially be a high seed, simply because it wins every match.

The "losers score" stuff only matters if there is ANOTHER robot that is 8 - 0. Wins are everything people.

John