YMTC: Bluabot dies while pinning

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can play ref and make a call. YMTC situations are not meant to represent situations that have occurred at competitions.

With 1:30 remaining in the finals, Redabot is pushing balls into the their chute. Bluabot (Redabot's opponent) pins Redabot in the corner. Bluabot starts to let out the magic smoke from their drive motors and dies. At 1:20, the referee warns the Bluabots to back off of the Redabots. Since Bluabot has died, the drivers can't move Bluabot and Redabot can't get out of the corner. The game ends with Bluabot pinning Redabot.

YOU MAKE THE CALL! Do you ...

Please base your ruling on the 2004 rules. If you find a specific rule that addresses this situation, please share it with everyone.

[Mike M.]

I throw so many flags i run out and have to count on my fingers.
<G27> A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10
seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by
the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count
starts over.If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for
each violation.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Mike M.

<G27> A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10
seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by
the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count
starts over.If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for
each violation.

While this rule does have some point to it. It states nothing about that if the pinning robot is unable to move itself under its own power. This usually isn't a tough call. The pinning side gets warned if it doesn't adhere to the warnings then it gets disabled. That's perfectly made clear. However If Blue pins Red and somehow Blue loses power on its own or the motivation of it (Drill motors / sprockets etc....) breaks then the rule should have some penalty just not that extensive as a perfectly fine working blue robot will get full penalty.

If the robot cannot move its not the teams fault for it not moving. It stopped on its own. however he shouldn't have been there in the first place and backed off sooner.

I would probably call that match and do a match replay at the end of the day or b4 lunch. Just to be fair. or giving the pinning aliance a slight penalty cause they did try to back off and there robot stopped working as it was doing so.

Call the match and have it replayed at a more convient time should be another option for a similar situation like this in the YMTC series

[Will Hanashiro]

hmmmm... this is a tuffy! i say that its one penalty flag, and only one. the penalty flag is for the original pin, but no other flags should be thrown because they had no possible way to back away.

[KenWittlief]

did this actaully happen in a match? it would seem unlikely that a dead robot could continue to pin a live one - once a bot goes dead its motors freewheel fairly easy and the other bot should have no problem wiggling free

?!

[Andy A.]

Not once in the rule book does it say that you can have a rematch because you're drive train died. I wouldn't expect one for my team, and I wouldn't ask for one. The only reason to restart a match is because of a problem with the field.

Obviously, bluabot is inviolation of the rules.

The tricky part is just when to throw flags. As far as the rules are concerned, the ref has discrection here. Since as soon as the ref tells the team to back off, and they don't, they are violating the rule. But do they only violate it once? Or do they violate the rule every time the ref decides to tell them to back off? Trickey question.

If I were reffing, I would throw flags at ten second intervals untill the time ran out or the red bot was able to free it's self.

Again, it is up to each team to build a robust 'bot (getting sick of hearing that yet? I am). If your bot breaks down while trying to do something that could potentialy cause a penalty, then tough luck. That is part of the risk you take when pinning.

Just hope that all those penaltys don't make you lose the match!

-Andy A.

[TF8]

How would everyone feel if the bluadarobot disabled their robot with the e-stop as they were pinning the red robot? As far as the rules state it seems the one 10pt penalty is worth taking out the number one seed as cheap as it would be.

[Natchez]

Posted by Ken
did this actaully happen in a match?

Original YMTC Post
You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can play ref and make a call. YMTC situations are not meant to represent situations that have occurred at competitions.

Ken, I have intentionally tried to stay away from situations that have happened to teams. YMTC is just a way for CDers to "play ref" for a moment. I started this so people could talk about the rules without a specific team being caught in the middle. Some YMTCs will be, as Yan put it, not ambiguous at all and some will create for a lively discussion.

Lucien

[KenWittlief]

the reason I asked is I dont think this could happen in real life, unless the bot that was pinned had globe motors for a drivetrain

and if a bot was that weak you wouldnt waste your time pinning it - and you certainly wouldnt hit the Estop button to 'pin' a weak bot

and I cant imagine a team hitting the Estop as part of their strategy for any reason - you just dont know what the other team will do, but your bot will be dead for certain till the match is over.

[Andy A.]

Acutally Ken, I belive that it would be very easy to pin a bot in such a manner that it could never get out.

Even a bot with only a two drill motor drive train that was shut down could pretty easily do it. All you have to do is get your wheels perpendicular to thiers (imagine a 'T'). That way, the motors free wheeling have no effect on it, the pinned bot has to have the power to either slip the pinning wheels sidways (which depends on the wheel type and number of them) or otherwise tip the bot. The pinned bot would have no room to turn sideways, so unless it can crab, it's only choice is to try to push the pinning 'bot out of the way.

I've tried pushing my teams bot from the side. It only has two wheels powered by drill motors. Unless I pushed at the corners or fairly high up, she didnt budge an inch. A four wheel drive would be just about impossible for me to have moved, and I have the benifet of arms and and extra 30 pounds of weight on a FIRST bot.

I think this situation could happen.

-Andy A

[KenWittlief]

but you cant push a bot up against a wall if your wheels are perpendicular to theirs, you would not be able to apply any force against the other bot to pin it?

and if there was the slightest bit of space to move the pinned bot could rock back and forth and use its momentum to push you away.

but to go back to the original question, if you continue to pin a bot, whether you are powered or not, you get a 10 point penaly every 10 seconds

which means you would pretty much lose the match - which is how it should be since pinning another bot for a minute or two is against the spirit of the game (thats why we HAVE the penalties - you keep doing it, you keep getting penalties and you lose!)

[Jeff_Rice]

What if the penalties cause the points to go negative? You are hurting both alliances if you continue to throw flags.

[KenWittlief]

penalties always hurt the winnings teams qualifiacation points (is that the right word? for the losers score)

but the bottom line is the penalized team will lose the match.