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View Poll Results: You Make The Call
I warn/penalize BLUE team for pinning 19 36.54%
I award Bluabot 50 points for hanging 31 59.62%
I award Redabot 50 points for hanging 6 11.54%
I do not award Bluabot any points for hanging 9 17.31%
I do not award Redabot any points for hanging 26 50.00%
I do something else ... please explain 4 7.69%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 05-04-2004, 02:46
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YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can play ref and make a call. YMTC situations are not meant to represent situations that have occurred at competitions.

A special thanks to Joe for this situation. This one might be a stumper.

In the third game of the finals, Bluabot and Redabot go directly for the bar. For the first time in history, two robots hang in autonomous mode! After 15 seconds, Bluabot is 6 FEET off the ground and Redabot is about 6 INCHES off the ground. With one minute remaining and the blue alliance trailing by a score of 80 to 115, Bluabot lowers itself onto Redabot forcing one of Redabot's wheels to touch the ground. Redabot does everything it can to free itself from a "Sitting Bluabot" but have no luck.

The match ends with Bluabot sitting on Redabot and Redabot's wheel touching the ground. If you remove Bluabot, then Redabot will be hanging. Likewise, if you remove Redabot, Bluabot will be hanging Not counting the Bluabot and Redabot, the score is BLUE 45 and RED 85.


YOU MAKE THE CALL! Do you ...
(please note that you can choose multiple options with this YMTC)

Please base your ruling on the 2004 rules. If you find a specific rule that addresses this situation, please share it with everyone.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 03:09
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Ok I have a question about this ! Blue bot sat itself on Red Bot during the match or after.

Ah yes this is a stumper!

If this was intentional (like Blue bot just decides to drop them themselves to prevent red bot to get up) I would throw a few flags for aggressive action

If Blue bot gently lowered itself (a slow decent [i've seen some robots make a decent as soon as the match is up]) then I see no real issue and Blue would be counted as hanging and red bot would be counted as touching the floor gets nothing.

I'm tired and typing in te dark right now :-) and in no shape to turn the light on to search for a rule about this so someone with a lil bit more energy then I please find the rule and post. This seems like a better problem that will get much discussion
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Unread 05-04-2004, 04:19
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Here's how I see it, there are three rules that need to be looked at.

1. A Blue robot can be touching a non-scoring Red robot and still get points.

2. The blue robot would still be hanging if everything else is removed therefore it is hanging. If Blue would not be hanging when Red was removed then it would not be considered hanging.

3. FIRST has said it is legal to "de-hang" another robot which is what Blue did to Red. They were hanging and Blue forced them to the platform.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 04:42
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

I'm not sure if this one is a stumper as much as it is unpleasant to score by the rules of the game.

Quote:
HANGING – A ROBOT is considered HANGING from the Pull-Up Bar if it is directly SUPPORTED by the horizontal bar and is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals.

SUPPORTED – If the “supporting object” is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.

<G27> A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10 seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count starts over. If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for each violation.
As the rules are written, Redabot cannot classify as hanging because it does not meet the second point (it *is* touching the platform). This renders the first point (directly supported by the horizontal bar) moot, because the definition of supported says the robot would not be hanging if the supporting object was removed, and Redabot never met the second point of hanging. Hence, Bluabot doesn't come into account. The supported clause is circular and a bit confusing, but touching the platform is clearly not allowed to be hanging.

Bluabot is hanging because it is not touching the ground, it would remain hanging with Redabot removed (not supported by Redabot), and it would not remain hanging (off the ground) with the horizontal bar removed.

The rules as is only apply to pinning while on the carpet, so strictly speaking, pinning penalties do not apply.

And if it is modified to apply on any field ground (platform and carpet), it would depend on whether Redabot could have moved away, including if Redabot was able to lower itself off the bar and drive away. If so, no penalties on Bluabot, as Redabot's movement was not inhibited. However, if Redabot cannot lower itself or move reasonably in any direction whatsoever, warnings and penalties on Bluabot, the number of penalties as per precedence on the pinning rule.
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Last edited by Winged Globe : 05-04-2004 at 04:44.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 08:09
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

if the blue bot is keeping the red bot from pulling itself up, it MUST be supporting some of its weight on the red bot, it could not possible be preventing the red bot from ascending if most of its weight were not supported by it

and the red is clearly supported by its wheels

so neither are entirely supported by the bar

neither are hanging

BTW - this would be easy to determine - bluebots cables or hook arm would be loose on the bar, or slack, it its applying force to the redbot

Last edited by KenWittlief : 05-04-2004 at 08:15.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 10:16
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

According to the rules, Bluabot IS hanging, and Redabot is not. However, I would penalize Bluabot for pinning. Also, Bluabot is technically not pinning, while they are inhibiting the movement of Redabot, Rule <G27> clearly states,

Quote:
Originally Posted by G27
A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10
seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by
the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count
starts over. If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for
each violation.
Therefore Blue would beat Red 95-85.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 10:28
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

the red bot is not 'pinned' if it is free to drive away

the blue bot is preventing it from going up - it is blocking its path in the Z direction

but its not necessarily pinning it so it cant move at all.

besides, the rules state pining only applies when:
Quote:
(inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet)...
on the carpet

also from the rules:

Quote:
SUPPORTED – If the “supporting object” is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.
if you are sitting on top of another bot, and your cables are slack, or your arm is loose, then you are not hanging to begin with, so you cannot 'remain' hanging when the bot is removed

Last edited by KenWittlief : 05-04-2004 at 11:16.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 16:30
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

I asked this very question at UTC New England. The ruling was that if the Bluabot was removed and the Redabot was hanging then Redabot scores. Aidan was the Head Ref.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 19:13
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

The way I see it, Redabot is definitely NOT hanging. That's not in question at all.

What is in question is Bluabot's method of descent.

IF BLUABOT SLAMMED DOWN ON REDABOT:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 points for Bluabot, as it is defined as hanging in the scenario.
-Warn Bluabot for getting a too rough, penalize if there's some real damage

IF BLUABOT EASED DOWN ON REDABOT IN A SLOW, CAREFUL MANNER TO PREVENT DAMAGE:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 for Bluabot, as it would be hanging (given in scenario).
-No warnings to Bluabot, as it's exhibiting a legitimate strategy and showing enough GP by not intentionally trying to damage Redabot. (Besides, Redabot is supposed to be built to withstand "vigorous interaction.")
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Unread 05-04-2004, 21:49
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred
The way I see it, Redabot is definitely NOT hanging. That's not in question at all.

What is in question is Bluabot's method of descent.

IF BLUABOT SLAMMED DOWN ON REDABOT:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 points for Bluabot, as it is defined as hanging in the scenario.
-Warn Bluabot for getting a too rough, penalize if there's some real damage

IF BLUABOT EASED DOWN ON REDABOT IN A SLOW, CAREFUL MANNER TO PREVENT DAMAGE:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 for Bluabot, as it would be hanging (given in scenario).
-No warnings to Bluabot, as it's exhibiting a legitimate strategy and showing enough GP by not intentionally trying to damage Redabot. (Besides, Redabot is supposed to be built to withstand "vigorous interaction.")
Great minds think alike I see.
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Unread 06-04-2004, 02:40
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtaman02
Great minds think alike I see.
Yep. And I agree with Ken Wittlief's analysis.

Red is obviously NOT hanging, because it is touching the platform.

Blue is NOT hanging, because, if Red is SUPPORTING enough of Blue's weight that it can't raise itself off of the platform, then the chin-up bar is NOT supporting Blue.
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Unread 06-04-2004, 12:54
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwross
Yep. And I agree with Ken Wittlief's analysis.

Red is obviously NOT hanging, because it is touching the platform.

Blue is NOT hanging, because, if Red is SUPPORTING enough of Blue's weight that it can't raise itself off of the platform, then the chin-up bar is NOT supporting Blue.
it would, however, be a ref's call. they would attempt to remove the red bot without disturbing the blue bot. after red's removal, it would be up to the refs to decide if blue was hanging or not. everyway I have ever heard a head ref explain it (at two driver meetings) is "If everything else were removed, would the robot be hanging." I think the answer is "yes" (at least in the picture in my head). unless for some reason blue's hooking aparatus is longer than 9 feet and after red is removed they touch the platform...then they aren't hanging. however, more than likely (again still using picture in my head) blue hangs +50. i guess we kind of agree...i must only have half a great mind...now to figure out which half it is...
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Unread 08-04-2004, 16:08
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

My idea (which probably throws away a few rules) is this:
  • Penalize bluabot for forcing redabot down (poor sportsmanship if nothing else)
  • DON'T give bluabot 50 points (penelty)
  • Give redabot 50 points (w/o bluabot, who was penalized, redabot would hang)
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Unread 08-04-2004, 16:43
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Yeah thats quite a situation. My guess is that Blue is pinning red and therefore it will be penalized. After that i would that blue and red should be awarded the 50 points.
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Unread 05-04-2004, 17:21
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Re: YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

Regarding the pinning rule, not only does it explicitly apply only to the carpet, but it is specifically designed to stop powerful robots from having too much of an advantage over weak ones (or else it would lead to some pretty defensive strategies). It's also a carry-over from old games and therefore it's reasonable to say it isn't designed to take hanging into account. FIRST has also said otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winged Globe
As the rules are written, Redabot cannot classify as hanging because it does not meet the second point (it *is* touching the platform). This renders the first point (directly supported by the horizontal bar) moot, because the definition of supported says the robot would not be hanging if the supporting object was removed, and Redabot never met the second point of hanging. Hence, Bluabot doesn't come into account. The supported clause is circular and a bit confusing, but touching the platform is clearly not allowed to be hanging.

Bluabot is hanging because it is not touching the ground, it would remain hanging with Redabot removed (not supported by Redabot), and it would not remain hanging (off the ground) with the horizontal bar removed.
Zing. That's the right reasoning according to the rules; the rules are very clear to give a structured and ordered approach to determining whether or not a robot is hanging. If those conditions are met, you can get into the "if this were removed" (ITWR) business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winged Globe
I asked this very question at UTC New England. The ruling was that if the Bluabot was removed and the Redabot was hanging then Redabot scores. Aidan was the Head Ref.
I believe this is in error; clearly Bluabot is not supporting anything (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore ITWR does not apply. If you doubt, refer to the rules given in Winged Globe's post.
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