Using an FRC with the RCX?

[Astronouth7303]

I was lieing in bed this morning when it hit me: Since the prog port is RS-232, and so is a computer, there is a chance you could connect LEGO's old COMM tower with the prog port on the RC or the EDU. You would probably need to make a custom cable, but it might work.

Basically, to control the RCX, you send it IR messages via the IR tower. From there it's a simple matter of programming the two.
The LUGNET thread for sending messages in VB can be found here.

Here's some FRC code to do it:

#define SendByte(Byte) {TXREG = Byte; Wait4TXEmpty();}
void SendRCXMessage (char Message)
{
	//Header
	SendByte(0x55);
	SendByte(0xFF);
	SendByte(!0xFF);
	//Opcode for Message
	SendByte(0xF7);
	SendByte(!0xF7);
	//Message Byte
	SendByte(Message);
	SendByte(!Message);
	//Checksum
	SendByte((0xF7 + Message) & 0xFF);
	SendByte(!((0xF7 + Message) & 0xFF));
}

The RCX, unfortunately, only has a 1 byte buffer for IR, so I thought of a 1 byte setup to set each motor to a certain speed.
The RCX has outputs A, B, and C. They can be Forward, Backward, or stopped, and have a speed of 1-8. This can be expressed as -8 to 8.

If you just want 2 motors, you can set both in the same byte in the range of -7 to 8. Use the first 4 bits for A and the second 4 for B. In NQC:

// A Basic RC Skid-Steer Program (Recieve)

#define mLeft OUT_A
#define mRight OUT_C
#define nOffset 7
#define nBit 16

int Left = 0;
int Right = 0;

task main()
{
 start GetMessage;
 start RunLeft;
 start RunRight;
}

task GetMessage()
{
 Left = Message() / nBit - nOffset;
 Right = Message() % nBit - nOffset;
}


task RunLeft()
{
 while (true)
 {
  SetPower (mLeft, abs(Left));
  if (Left > 0) OnFwd(mLeft);
  if (Left < 0) OnRev(mLeft);
  if (Left == 0) Off(mLeft);
 }
}

task RunRight ()
{
 while (true)
 {
  SetPower(mRight, abs(Right));
  if (Right > 0) OnFwd(mRight);
  if (Right < 0) OnRev(mRight);
  if (Right == 0) Off(mRight);
 }
}

(And yes, the RCX does support primitive multi-threading)

In the FRC:

void Set2RCXMotors(signed char Left, signed char Right)
{
 char Temp = 0;
 //Check Left value
 if (Left > 8)
  Left = 8;
 if (Left < -7)
  Left = -7;
 //Check Right value
 if (Right > 8)
  Left = 8;
 if (Right < -7)
  Left = -7;
 
 Temp = (Left+7) << 4;
 Temp |= Right+7;
 SendRCXMessage(Temp);
}

If you want to control all 3 outs directly, then you'll have to specify which one. The first 2 bits are what out, 3 is 0, 4 is direction, 5-7 are power-1, and 8 is "Is on?". So, in a nutshell: MM0D PPPOn.
On the RCX:

// A Basic RC 3 Motor control

int Left = 0;
int Center = 0;
int Right = 0;

task main()
{
 start GetMessage;
 start RunLeft;
 start RunRight;
 start RunCenter;
}

task GetMessage()
{
 int Mess;
 Mess = Message;
 //Left
 if ((Mess/64) == 1)
 {
  if (Mess & 0x10)
  {
   Left = ((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0) ;
  }
  else
  {
   Left = -(((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0));
  }
 }
 
 //Center
 if ((Mess/64) == 2)
 {
  if (Mess & 0x10)
  {
   Center = ((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0);
  }
  else
  {
   Center = -(((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0));
  }
 }
 
 //Right
 if ((Mess/64) == 3)
 {
  if (Mess & 0x10)
  {
   Right = ((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0);
  }
  else
  {
   Right = -(((Mess/2) & 8) & ((Mess & 1) != 0)));
  }
 }
}


task RunLeft()
{
 while (true)
 {
  SetPower (OUT_A, abs(Left));
  if (Left > 0) OnFwd(OUT_A);
  if (Left < 0) OnRev(OUT_A);
  if (Left == 0) Off(OUT_A);
 }
}

task RunRight()
{
 while (true)
 {
  SetPower(OUT_C, abs(Right));
  if (Right > 0) OnFwd(OUT_C);
  if (Right < 0) OnRev(OUT_C);
  if (Right == 0) Off(OUT_C);
 }
}

task RunCenter()
{
 while (true)
 {
  SetPower (OUT_B, abs(Center));
  if (Left > 0) OnFwd(OUT_B);
  if (Left < 0) OnRev(OUT_B);
  if (Left == 0) Off(OUT_B);
 }
}

And on the FRC side:

void Set3RCXMotors(signed char Left, signed char Center, signed char Right)
{
 char Temp = 0;
 //Check Left value
 if (Left > 8)
  Left = 8;
 if (Left < -8)
  Left = -8;
 //Check Center value
 if (Center > 8)
  Left = 8;
 if (Center < -8)
  Left = -8;
 //Check Right value
 if (Right > 8)
  Left = 8;
 if (Right < -8)
  Left = -8;
 
 //Motor
 Temp = 0x40;
 //Direction
 Temp |= ((Left<0)? 0 : 0x10); //Ooooh! A Ternary!
 //Power
 Temp |= absdif(Left, 1) << 1;
 //Is On?
 Temp |= (Left != 0) & 1;
 SendRCXMessage(Temp);

 //Again for the center
 //Motor
 Temp = 0x80;
 //Direction
 Temp |= ((Center<0)? 0 : 0x10); //Ooooh! Another Ternary!
 //Power
 Temp |= absdif(Center, 1) << 1;
 //Is On?
 Temp |= (Center != 0) & 1;
 SendRCXMessage(Temp);

 //Again for the right
 //Motor
 Temp = 0xC0;
 //Direction
 Temp |= ((Right<0)? 0 : 0x10); //Ooooh! Another Ternary!
 //Power
 Temp |= absdif(Right, 1) << 1;
 //Is On?
 Temp |= (Right != 0) & 1;
 SendRCXMessage(Temp);
}

There are obviously a few bugs to work out (I wrote this on the fly!), but I think you can get the idea. (My favorite NQC IDE, BrixCC, can be found Here.) I'll give every one a few hours to chug through that.

[Ryan M.]

That'd probably work. It would be interesting, you could say, have the RCX in charge of controlling drive motors, leaving the RC free to determine where you want to go, etc. I have a Mindstorms set (plus all of the expansions (a few of them twice )), so I might find this and interesting thing to look into.

--EDIT--
Oh, yeah. NQC is good, but BrickOS (former LegOS) is better. BrickOS is also C/C++ programming, but everything is precompiled, not interpruted like with NQC and the default LEGo firmware.

[Astronouth7303]

Plus, if you have an RCX v1, there is a 9-volt AC adaptor plug in the back (made for the train adaptors). So, connect the 12v Exide to a 12vdc-9vdc transformer, hook that up to the RCX, and you don't need to use 6 AAs!

Anyway, The connecting cable won't be standard: the tower is a Male with just enough space for the cable that came with the kit (No screws). The FRC prog is female. Both the FRC prog and the LEGO IR Tower (LIRT) are made to connect to a computer, so there are going to be problems if you just connect them directly. (Some good info on RS-232 can be found here.)
Using the jargon, we are trying to connect 2 DCE devices. Unfortunately, I only have pins for DTEs which is (DB9):

DTE
Pin   Purpose
 0  - Gnd (Shell)
 1  < DCD (Data Carrier Detect)
 2  < Rx
 3  > Tx
 4  > DTR (Data Terminal Ready)
 5  - Gnd (signal Ground)
 6  < DSR (Data Send Ready)
 7  > RTS (Request To Send)
 8  < CTS (Clear To Send)
 9  < RI (Ring Indicator)
    ^Direction (< = DCE to DTE, > = DTE to DCE, - = None)

So, to connect DCE to DCE (think of the FRC as the DTE):

FRC LIRT
Gnd Gnd
 Tx Rx
 Rx Tx
DSR DTR
DTR DSR

I'm not sure about the rest of it (RI, DCD, RTS, CTS). The problem is that there are 3 lines for DTE>DCE but there are 5 for DCE>DTE. And I don't want to fry my FRC or LIRT. Don't forget, the labels are relative to the DTE. If someone figures it out, tell us!
(The standard is RS-232.)

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

Plus, if you have an RCX v1, there is a 9-volt AC adaptor plug in the back (made for the train adaptors).

I want to know why they got rid of it on v1.5 and v2.0.

I'm going to look up some info on the RC to computer protocol.

[Astronouth7303]

Got it!
Thank you B&B Electronics!

FRC   LIRT
Gnd - Gnd
 Tx < Rx
 Rx > Tx
DTR < DSR
DSR > DTR
RTS < CTS
CTS > RTS
DCD X DCD
 RI X RI

Don't connect DCD or RI to anything.
The pins are as follows (DB9):

Shell Shell (optional)
    5 5
    3 2
    2 3
    4 6
    6 4
    7 8
    8 7

1 and 9 don't connect to anything.

So if anyone fries something doing this, please tell us before we fry something!

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

So if anyone fries something doing this, please tell us before we fry something!

LOL!

You'll have to wait until tomorrow for the info. Sorry.

[Grommit]

Two questions:

1) What kind of hardware would I need on the receiving end to make this work?

2) Has anyone tried to accomplish this successfully?

Thanks, I would have never thought of trying something like this!

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by Grommit

Two questions:

1) What kind of hardware would I need on the receiving end to make this work?

For the RC, you need a cable to attach to the LEGO IR tower. For the RCX, nothing. It has it's own built in IR.

Originally Posted by Grommit

2) Has anyone tried to accomplish this successfully?

I don't know of anyone.

[Ryan M.]

Here are a few links:

Packet description: (includes example of sending IR message)
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~kekoa/rcx/protocol.html
From this website, I think that sending:
55 ff 00 f7 08 M ~M C ~C
Where C is the checksum. Sends the messageM. One thing I'm confused on is the checksum. It doesn't seem to work the way I read it in his description. Even trying to figure the checksum using his example I didn't come up with the same thing he did. It may be I just don't understand it. If you kow, tell me how to compute it.

Some more stuff on the packets: (not as good)
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~kekoa/rcx/#Protocol

Do you need to know how to send that out, or do you already have that figured out?

--EDIT--
Here is a site with examples of using it in C++. http://www.generation5.org/content/2001/rob08.asp.
Reading that, it's a great site.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Texan

Here are a few links:

Packet description: (includes example of sending IR message)
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~kekoa/rcx/protocol.html
From this website, I think that sending:
55 ff 00 f7 08 M ~M C ~C
Where C is the checksum. Sends the messageM. One thing I'm confused on is the checksum. It doesn't seem to work the way I read it in his description. Even trying to figure the checksum using his example I didn't come up with the same thing he did. It may be I just don't understand it. If you kow, tell me how to compute it.

Some more stuff on the packets: (not as good)
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~kekoa/rcx/#Protocol

Do you need to know how to send that out, or do you already have that figured out?

--EDIT--
Here is a site with examples of using it in C++. http://www.generation5.org/content/2001/rob08.asp.
Reading that, it's a great site.

The example from LUGNET was made for MSCOMM and VB. I just took the array and wrote the functions for the controller.

A message packet is only one additional info section.
Header (3 bytes)
OpCode (2)
Message (Info, 2)
Checksum (2)

The OpCode for Message is 0xF7. It has one argument: the message value. Every data byte is followed by it's not. So you get:
Header = 55FF00
OpCode = F708
Message = M ~M
CheckSum = (F7+M) & FF

I think we're finally getting it!

The second link is extremely helpful. And I'm glad to know about the Null-modem cable thing: The LIRT is CTE, not a CSE (it is a male, like your computer), so maybe a standard cable works!

[Ryan M.]

You said the prog port earlier, but how do we access that? Or, rather, can we get enough control to do what we want? You can send text, but I haven't studied the printf() access of the port. Maybe that port will work or maybe something else is necessary. Correct me if you know the way.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Grommit

Two questions:

1) What kind of hardware would I need on the receiving end to make this work?

LEGO's RCX. That's all (You may need the official firmware to get the message packets to work). At transmission, however, you need an old COM tower, not a new USB.

Originally Posted by Grommit

2) Has anyone tried to accomplish this successfully?

I don't think so. But it hasn't been very long. The hardest part would be the cable

Originally Posted by Grommit

Thanks, I would have never thought of trying something like this!

Neither would I until yesterday!