Is it okay to run one motor in a two motor transmission?

[NoodleKnight]

More specifically, say I have this two motor transmission, and for some reason (not significant to this topic) I want to only run one motor and not pull out the other -- only running one of the two motors. Is this safe to do? Am I going to melt wires? victors? motors? the robot?

Or what if I didn't enable the back-EMF in the victors, or even put a spike in between the victors and motors, and had that spike set to off? will that make it resonable safe?

Thanks,
-Jonathan

[colt527]

As long as the motor can back drive, you should have no problem. We do it all the time, we just pull out the breakers for the motors and it runs fine with only 1 motor in the transmission. Just alittle info: We use the CIMs and drill motors with the back drive prevention pin pulled out. So if u have a similar setup I see no problems.

[sanddrag]

Hopefully Al will stumbe along this thread and give us a precise detailed answer I've always wondered what happens to the electricity generated by a spinning motor (essentially a generator I suppose) that is not connected to anything. Does the electricity (for lack of a better term) dissapate into the air?

EDIT: Looks like Al beat me to the thread But I'm still wondering about my question.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Hopefully Al will stumbe along this thread and give us a precise detailed answer I've always wondered what happens to the electricity generated by a spinning motor (essentially a generator I suppose) that is not connected to anything. Does the electricity (for lack of a better term) dissapate into the air?

EDIT: Looks like Al beat me to the thread But I'm still wondering about my question.

The motor develops a "voltage potential" i.e. a measurable voltage, that is proportional to the RPM (DC brush motors). However, there is nothing dissipated just like the voltage potential at your wall outlet doesn't go anywhere. There is a small electrical principle known as 'open circuit voltage" that occurs. Since the voltage generated is not causing a current to flow, no voltage is dropped across the internal resistance of the motor. (essentially the resistance of the miles of wire in each armature coil) Since no voltage is dropped across the internal resistance, the voltage at the motor terminals can be pretty high. There are a lot of variables involved in generating voltage so it is hard to predict what open circuit voltage each motor will develop.

[JamesCH95]

If you pull the breakers AND set the Victor jumpers into "coast" there should be no problems what so ever, as long as you're not using any worm gears (yuck).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by NoodleKnight

More specifically, say I have this two motor transmission, and for some reason (not significant to this topic) I want to only run one motor and not pull out the other -- only running one of the two motors. Is this safe to do? Am I going to melt wires? victors? motors? the robot?

Or what if I didn't enable the back-EMF in the victors, or even put a spike in between the victors and motors, and had that spike set to off? will that make it resonable safe?

Thanks,
-Jonathan

Jonathon,
There is one critical thing to consider, the Victor is still connected to the unused motor. If it is jumpered for "brake" it will provide a dynamic load for the voltage generated as the unused motor is back driven by the transmission. If the Victor is in "coast", the motor will drive back voltage into the output of the Victor. Under most cases this shouldn't be a problem, but it is possible (not probable) that the motor could develop a high enough voltage to take out some power FETs. Do not wire a spike in series with the Victor, although it acts like a relay it is most definitely not.

"drill motors with the back drive prevention pin pulled out."
Ken,
I am assuming you are talking about the roll pins in the drill transmission that locks the output shaft. Thanks for reminding everyone, rookies especially, that these pins should be removed before using the drill transmissions.

[Arefin Bari]

Back in 2004 UCF regional, on thursday evening our robot was 138.5 pounds. we had to take off weight from that robot. we had 2 motor transmissions... we took the chipua motors out... it was fine.

[NoodleKnight]

Thanks for you help guys...

In theory we're just going to run the motors straight, no drill gearboxes (we remove the back-drive pins anyways when we use them). I was worried about the current generated through the non-powered spinning motors. I know that we should keep the braking setting off on the Victors, but even so I was wondering (like what sanddrag said) where does all that electricity generated through the motors go?

And what's the potential risk of using a spike in between the victor and motor? I saw a thread or whitepaper saying that using that setup would be the safest setup to run a motor (we never do it, but it does sound like a good idea, aside from the 20amp fuse on the spikes).

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by NoodleKnight

...And what's the potential risk of using a spike in between the victor and motor? I saw a thread or whitepaper saying that using that setup would be the safest setup to run a motor (we never do it, but it does sound like a good idea, aside from the 20amp fuse on the spikes).

It looks like you received good advise from others already on most points so I'll address your last question...

Do not do this.

The Spike is not a mechanical relay, but (I believe) it is a solid state relay. The spike is intended to run at a full 12 volts. The Victor would put out a variable voltage which is, in fact, a chopped DC waveform. The electronics in the Spike would not likely survive. Moreover, the Victor can put out negative voltage (reverse). This would definitely fry the Spike.

Whatever thread or white-paper you saw gave you bad advice.

[NoodleKnight]

Thanks for the explanation, Mike.

What if I wanted to shut down a motor during competition? I can't just walk onto the field and rip out a breaker... Would just setting the victors (victors set to "coast" mode) to give 0 volts work?

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by NoodleKnight

Thanks for the explanation, Mike.

What if I wanted to shut down a motor during competition? I can't just walk onto the field and rip out a breaker... Would just setting the victors (victors set to "coast" mode) to give 0 volts work?

Turning off the motor would be easy enough to do through programming. As long as the victor's brake function is set to coast, you won't have any back EMF problems (probably). Just hit a switch, and you're on half power.

Reminds me of those V8 engines that, when there is no great load on the engine, shuts down every other cylinder turning the engine into a v4, saving some gas.

-Andy A.

[NoodleKnight]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

Turning off the motor would be easy enough to do through programming. As long as the victor's brake function is set to coast, you won't have any back EMF problems (probably). Just hit a switch, and you're on half power.

Reminds me of those V8 engines that, when there is no great load on the engine, shuts down every other cylinder turning the engine into a v4, saving some gas.

-Andy A.

Alright cool. Thanks for the help...

I remember that too, i think the new dodge (magnum?) hemi V8's had that function to cut-out fuel for four of eight cylinders when cruising on the highway.

[Rickertsen2]

Originally Posted by NoodleKnight

Thanks for the explanation, Mike.

What if I wanted to shut down a motor during competition? I can't just walk onto the field and rip out a breaker... Would just setting the victors (victors set to "coast" mode) to give 0 volts work?

The breakers are irrevelant so long as the jumper is set to coast and you are giving the controller a neutral signal. You don't need any extra relays etc.

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

The Spike is not a mechanical relay, but (I believe) it is a solid state relay. The spike is intended to run at a full 12 volts. The Victor would put out a variable voltage which is, in fact, a chopped DC waveform. The electronics in the Spike would not likely survive. Moreover, the Victor can put out negative voltage (reverse). This would definitely fry the Spike.

The spikes are definately mechanical. You can hear them click if you listen closely. I have even heard one make a machine-gun like noise when toggled very fast.... then it died after a few seconds...oops

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

...The spikes are definately mechanical. You can hear them click if you listen closely. I have even heard one make a machine-gun like noise when toggled very fast.... then it died after a few seconds...oops

I stand corrected... However, I stand behind my feeling that the reverse voltage and severe brownout conditions you would get by putting a Spike in series with a Victor would permanently damage the Spike.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

The breakers are irrevelant so long as the jumper is set to coast and you are giving the controller a neutral signal. You don't need any extra relays etc.


The spikes are definately mechanical. You can hear them click if you listen closely. I have even heard one make a machine-gun like noise when toggled very fast.... then it died after a few seconds...oops

Rick,
This from the Spike Blue Data sheet..."Spike is an H-Bridge relay module custom designed for Robotics applications." I believe the "H Bridge" implies in this particular device, a solid state device. There is simply not enough room for four relays in that little box. The clicking you heard was likely the components failing.
Using a Spike in series with a motor in our kit, is redundant since the Victors give such complete control over all motor functions. You may have seen an application where a Spike was used to turn "coast/brake" on and off. If you check the rule book you will find that spikes can only be used on certain motors.
"5.6.3 Relay Modules
For information about the Relay Modules, refer to the Spike Users Manual available on Innovation First’s
website.
Warning! Attempting to drive the Drill motors, Van Door motors, Globe motors or Fisher-Price motors
directly with the Relay Modules could damage the Relay Modules and is, therefore, prohibited.." Add the Chalupa to that list as well.
In addition to that, common sense practices dictate that you want a minimum of components between the controllers and motors, adding a relay module adds that much more wire, another failure point and a bunch of connectors to the circuit. All of which are bad.
It is not necessary to pull the breakers unless you are unsure of your software preventing drive to those motors you don't want to use. The breakers are there to protect the wiring and Victor from flaming during a catastrophic failure. Voltage from a turning motor backfeeding the Victor will not be protected by the circuit breaker upstream from the Victor.