Does <R14> preclude you from practicing after the Fix-it Window

[Natchez]

Does <R14> making teams "put down their tools" preclude them from practicing after the Fix-It Window?

<R14> Prior to the competitions: After the close of the “FIX-IT WINDOW” and prior to the competition, the team must put down their tools, cease fabrication of robot parts, and cease all software development. Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax. Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game-playing strategies, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation for the upcoming competitions. But no construction or fabrication is allowed.

Our team definitely believes that this does preclude us from practicing. We even played devil's advocate at our meeting tonight and could never convince ourselves that practicing was within the spirit of Rule R14. During this devil's advocate discussion and to keep with the theme of the year, we had two men on base with no outs. "What if we never pick up a wrench to fix our robot?" was standing on first and "What if someone else repairs anything that breaks on our practice 'bot?" was standing on second. Then, our best hitter had a full-count with the runners going so we'd stay out of a double play. Crack! She hit the hardest line drive to first base that I've ever seen. It came off the bat sounding like this, "Isn't our battery charger a tool. If so and if all of your other silly let's-cut-n-harden-Billy's-finger-so-it-looks-like-a-7/16-open-ended-wrench ideas are legal, then we can only use the batteries that we charge before the end of the Fix-it Window to run our 'bot. Ohhhhhhhhhhh, the triple play ... ... .

We then headed out onto the proverbial field mumbling, "do you think we can buy enough batteries to last us between the fix-it period and competition ... maybe 2,000 batteries would get us through!"

Look forward to your response,
Lucien & 118

[Cory]

You mean practicing... as with a practice bot?

I don't see why you couldn't. I just finished going over that section of the rules again and as long as nothing you're doing is going to end up on the competition robot, why can't you drive around your other robot, and tweak it so that you know what needs to be done at competition?

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Cory

You mean practicing... as with a practice bot?

Cory,

Yes, as with a practice robot. We thought that "the team must put down their tools" along with "Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax." statements meant that we should not be working on anything in our shop that has to do with the robot competition (competition 'bot, practice 'bot, playing field, etc.) for the 2005 FIRST Competition. We understand it to mean just for stuff pertaining to the robot, for example, we definitely think it is okay to cut PVC for spirit stuff in our shop after the Fix-it Window.

Thanks for the help,
Lucien

[meaubry]

I interpret this as what is says - no more building or programming. I don't believe the intent extends to battery chargers for the batteries to run the practice robot (if you build one).

It also doesn't say - no practicing, no planning, no strategizing, no thinking, no trying to improve your driving skills, no playing simulated games, etc.

And - if you want to stop doing everything or some things, that is up to each team to decide. What isn't up for interpretation is Making things and Programming.

As to the "rest and recover from the build season" - depends on how your team defines it. Some may define it as "stop everything" - some may define it as, "okay now we need to work on the Hall of Fame presentation and video, or making buttons, or finishing up the planning for the off season event". Some teams are active year round and just because the 6 weeks are over doesn't mean the program just stops.

I believe the intent is aimed at Building and Programming the competition robot.

[Andy Baker]

R14 does not specifically say that we should not be practicing with a second robot, but I hope it means that we shouldn't. Our team is planing on complying with the "put down your tools and take a break" suggestion. Over the past 3-4 years, we have tried to make a practice 'bot to do some post-ship work (driver practice, programming tweaking, etc.), but we are always burnt out and it does not happen. We simply end up with many, many spare parts.

At ship date, we are tired, frustrated, and behind in our normal lives. I would like <R14> to eliminate practice time between the ship date and competition, personally, but I don't know if the verbage of the rule prohibits it.

I agree that this is a good time to work on marketing/pit/team org./awards stuff.

This is selfish, but it is honest.

Andy

[Mike Ounsworth]

On that note, R14 states that:
"...Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game playing strategies, collect raw materials, etc."
I would say that practicing with a practice 'bot falls under the categories of 'gather and exchange information' and 'develop game playing strategies'.

[Aignam]

As of right now, practicing with a practice robot seems to be both legal and within the spirit of the rules. Perhaps this will be changed in one of the many updates to come.

[Noah Melamed]

I think this is a perfect question for the pre-season YMTC series of questions.

[Natchez]

Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.

Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien

[Mike Martus]

Following the extreme path even farther ....... would putting down tools include Shutting off ChiefDelphi.com? Should FIRST and Innovation FIRST disable all the tools (programming) they have provided? Should FIRST shut down their web site for the time period?

Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?

Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?

Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.

In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.

To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.


BTW-at the regional meetings last year FIRST people asked how many teams built a second robot. Better that 1/2 of the teams there (MI) did. If there is going to be a rule change not allowing this, there willl be a lot of unhappy teams if they wait to long.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

...
In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.

To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.
...

Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.

Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.

Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?

You're being facetious, but why not? What is wrong about limiting this madness to six weeks? High school football teams are limited as to what they can do when, i.e., you can lift weights and work out all summer, but you can't have an actual practice until so many days before the season starts. The reason rules like that are in place is so that those coaches who are most willing to take up every minute of their players' lives don't have as much of an advantage over those who are unwilling to.

The concept of a "Sabbath" might be based in religion, but it's not there arbitrarily - people really do need time to rest. You absolutely need time to stop focusing on work, and (literally or figuratively) smell the roses (unless you happen to be a florist, then just figuratively). Extended periods of highly stressful activity (like FIRST) take their toll on our physical, mental, and spiritual health, on our family, on every aspect of our lives. It makes sense that the time period that we do this should not be unduly extended, and that those who would extend it for themselves and for their students should not gain a huge advantage over those would rather take a breath.

We need well-rounded future engineers, and that's what FIRST is promoting with this rule.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?

Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?

Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.

Read the rule a bit more carefully.

<R14> Prior to the competitions: After the close of the “FIX-IT WINDOW” and prior to the competition, the team must put down their tools, cease fabrication of robot parts, and cease all software development. Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax. Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game-playing strategies, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation for the upcoming competitions. But no construction or fabrication is allowed.

The rule is very specific to fabrication. It does not in any way prohibit fund raising, preparing travel, mentoring, or learning (and I understand you were using the extremes as examples, but for this rule the argument doesn't work). The only thing it does is punctuate what's already been a rule for the past few years; no fabrication of real parts after the ship date. If a team has a practice robot, use the time to evaluate it, figure out what has to be done, where parts should go, etc. Document what should be done, so by the time competition rolls around a minute by minute schedule can be produced outlining exactly what should be done. If a team wants to fabricate parts for the practice robot to find out what the real bot's needs are, there's really nothing to stop that from happening. I would only hope in the spirit of gracious professionalism that none of those parts find their way into the competition, and only raw materials gathered (not modified or machined) during the window are brought in to the real robot.

The emphasis I added to the rule discounts the extreme side of the argument, and proves the contrary- the rule encourages more to be done on the logistical side of the team by diverting team resources from building to planning. The rule says "Teams may scout other teams, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation of the upcoming competitions." I'd say that's quite the opposite of not thinking about the robot. Just because the band saws and drill presses are turned off doesn't mean the whole team goes into shutdown mode. It's merely a break from the physical manipulation of metal/wood/electricity/compressed air, a chance to breathe air that doesn't smell like tap magic, and discuss the finer points of the program. Scouting and strategy will play a huge role in this year's competition, and every team knows fund raising never takes a break. Keep that in mind when the Fix-It window rolls around, and remember FIRST is doing it's best to keep all teams on equal grounds.

[Mike Martus]

I did read the rule careful, I was taking an extreme position, almost the what if........

I do however stand behind my point regarding students learning from making an additional robot of any kind to drive and practice repairs. Skills are only learned through practice.

On very often heard complaint is that students do not repair their own robots in the pits. In many cases it is because they do not have or have never been taught the skills to do so.

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.

Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien

WE'RE WRONG!

Q: Does <R14>, particularly "the team must put down their tools", preclude teams from using their tools to build, repair, and/or modify a practice robot between the Fix-it Window and competition? Simply, can teams "practice" after the FIW?

A: Teams can practice after the Fix-It window but anything you work on cannot be brought to the competition if it violates any rules.

Personally, I am very disappointed in this ruling. I believe that FIRST turned into lawyers for a day to come up with this ruling.

When reading these Rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than a lawyer’s interpretation. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule.

Honestly, I thought when we posted the question to the Q&A system, it was just a formality to verify that practicing was illegal. Now that "the team must put down their tools" does NOT mean that the team has to put down their tools, the question must be asked what "cease all software development" means. Does it mean that we can change variables to make the motors run in the right direction? Does it mean that we can do as much development on our practice robot as we desire as long as we key-punch the code in when we get to our regional? Does it mean that we can't touch a tool ... I mean a keyboard? Yes, we don't think that we can touch a keyboard after the FIW but we were wrong before and are probably wrong again.

Also, I will start a new thread discussing the pros and cons of practicing after the ship date. It WILL be some interesting conversation and look forward to understanding both sides.

Very, very disappointed,
Lucien