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#1
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engineer bots
prenote: I'll make cliffs later if enough ppl want them.
This was team 1549's rookie year and though we had some FIRST vets (one was on his 5'th year. he is a college student now) most of us, including myself, were rookies to FIRST. Anyways, moving on... A little about our team: there is a charter high school at Washtenaw community college that i am in and that is the home of team 1549. Our team consists of high school and college students. The college students are mostly majoring in industrial robotics, fluid power and machining. Most of them are not engineers. The point? At GLR this year we saw teams who's bots were obviously totally designed by the engineers. While this is legal i do not think it is with the spirit of FIRST. There were 4 builders (including myself) and 1 programmer who did 70% of the work on team 1549's robot. A few more guys jumped in in the last 2 weeks. Except for our passive gripper and the winch drum everything was designed, made and put together by high school and college students. Our bot, while very good (when the drive program isn't screwed up and I'm not getting ramming penalties), cant measure up to these superbots. There is nothing that can really be done so i guess i am just ranting for my own sanity. I just wanted to point out the unfair advantage that many teams have. Also, i cannot conclude a post about building the bot without thanking the mentors, particularly Kieth and Gary. Without your guidance, passing on the wisdom of past experience and teaching the team how to be a team we could never have gotten this done. Thanks guys! |
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#2
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Re: engineer bots
This subject has been debated over and over for years. Please search out some of the posts regarding this.
Summary in my words and my opinions: There are many types of FIRST teams with their own unique way of organization, building, engineering, fund-raising and yes participation levels of students and engineers. The true focus must remain the I in FIRST - Inspiration. How a team desires to inspire can run the full range from 100% student designed robots to the robots that have significant professional engineering. In both cases the Inspiration can be either weak or strong. It is how the team leadership decides to make their team run. Dean has said many times that Engineers and Teachers Inspiring youth to get involved in careers involving Science Engineering and math is the real mission. How it is done is up to the team. There are no magic formulas for we are all from different schools, different socio economic situations and have different levels of engineering/corp support. Is this unfair - YES. Would it not be great if we were all from wealthy communities and had corporate partners that could support teams without budget restrictions and all had students that were all college bound with scores of 35 on the ACT. And all students getting a free ride to a college of their choice. That (above) is not true and yet can be unfair. Is it unfair for a student not to know where their next meal is coming from - YES Is it unfair for a student to have a terminal illness - YES Is it unfair for a team to make their robot from used metal - YES Is it unfair for a team not to have an engineer on their team - YES Look, life is not fair. FIRST competitions are not fair. This is life. We make the best path we can and do everything possible to stay on it. Instead of focusing on what other teams have look at the INSPIRATION. Were you inspired by the experience. If so, FIRST has accomplished its mission as well as your team mentor. If you are NOT inspired take a close look at why. Please do not use the lack of resources as the excuse....I am sure there are others. Sorry for the long answer but I hold the INSPIRATION in FIRST as the most important mission. As a team leader if I do not INSPIRE I have failed, and I do not like to fail. Mike Martus Team #47 I have been with FIRST for 10 years and see the inspiration. |
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#3
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Re: engineer bots
I am 100% with Mike on this one.
Every team and every situation is different, and they can change from year to year. The true measure of a successful team is the Inspiration part - and that can come in a lot of different ways. Each team and each team member has an opinion about what is best. |
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#4
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Re: engineer bots
i agree with both opinions in this discussion
we are a rookie team and had minimal help as well as funding we worked so hard to get our robot going and then to see it work was awesome but then to get to the regional and see another rookie team with a machined robot that looked to be built by others i mean we did good but we were unable to get to nationals and a team that couldn't even control their robot could thats just where everything in my opinion comes into question ![]() Last edited by Nitroxextreme : 20-03-2005 at 18:13. |
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#5
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Re: engineer bots
Quote:
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#6
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Re: engineer bots
I myself would have to take a neutral side in this discussion. I have participated in both atmospheres. My first year on team 703 there was a core of about 5 students and 2 mentors that built,wired,programmed,and drove the robot. It was a very tight nit group of individuals that worked together very well. In fact we placed 5th out of 75 teams at the canadian regional last year. Then there was this year when we took in team 902 that had been disbanded by its home school. They had a group of 8 engineers that came with them when they joined our team. At first I felt the same way that most of you feel. I didnt want any engineers telling me how to build our robot, but now i wouldnt have it any other way. Not that the Engineers were the sole designers of our robot, Bill had us helping him design components whenever possible. I along with the rest of our team has developed a great relationship with some of these guys that we were weary about to begin with. Some of them are just like us, Kids in grownups bodies just wanting to have fun (no offense Matt we wouldnt have it any other way). The point i am tring to make is that there are points to both sides of the story and what a team decides is up to them. They both have there strengths along with there weaknesses. But i do know one thing. We started FIRST to achieve a common goal and not only will we leave with more knowledge and wisdom, we will leave as friends and thats what really counts if you ask me. And one final thing i would like to thank all the mentors for teaching me so much. Thanks alot guys.
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#7
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Re: engineer bots
personally i learned most in the area of teamwork because the mentors STAYED OUT to a large extent. In fact, i think they did a perfect job. They made sure we worked on the stuff we wernt so interested in. They made a few things, stuff that we had no idea about and could have never made (like a nifty design for our passive gripper). We decided to modify it quite a bit later, on our own and it worked out great. There certainly was a balance.
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#8
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Re: engineer bots
When I was on the Fairport team last year, we tried to show the students how to do everything. During the first few weeks we found we had to start all the tasks ourselves (the mentors) until the students could see how it was done. Then one by one we handed the tasks off, stepped in only when someone was stuck, and then only to get things going again.
I found this message I posted last year. I think it sums up my opinion on this matter perfectly: Quote:
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#9
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Re: engineer bots
Quote:
-Bharat |
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#10
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Re: engineer bots
some people would point fingers at team 1549 and say "what? you let college students help build your bot? we only let HS students build ours"
every team has their own approach - some teams take a few years to find their balance. but in the end, its all good. |
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#11
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Re: engineer bots
Please, everyone, before you post in this thread, read what you're about to say. Heck, even have someone else read it.
This is one of those sensitive topics where people have a knee jerk reaction and immediately post their thoughts. This is also one of those topics that we've never been able to have an intelligent, mature discussion on. It quickly degenerates into name calling, and finger pointing. Also, unless you have some insight into the day to day runnings of another team, please do not insinuate that the students on such teams do not do any of the work. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but fact of the matter is, you really don't know. As a warning, please keep discussion civil and on topic, or this thread will have to be closed. |
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#12
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Re: engineer bots
Personally, I really don't care if there is a team whose robot was built by the engineers. What I get out of FIRST is the satisfaction of working with the team. I love my team, I like it how all the personal problems go away when all of us come together to make this possible and show what SigmaC@T can do. Mentors are always there to help us. If they weren't there to help us, FIRST wouldn't be where it is now. The engineers never give up even after taking times off from work, getting yelled at by their wife, even putting themselves into jeopardy.
... I can also understand the problem with a team (with a student built robot) saying its not fair for another team to have a robot which is engineer built. But think positive. Put your mind together and take on the challenge. Welcome to the real world. |
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#13
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Re: engineer bots
[/b]What I think?
I agree on both parts. I mean INSPIRATION means different for everyone and their team. Is it okay for someone else building their team robot, NO. Is it fair to the other teams to compete in competitions with no engineers and limited budget and go against teams with super bots. NO. But its OK. Like a previous poster above said "Welcome to the real world" This is true, in life its not fair. I mean our robot is made totally by my team, just regular students, NO OUTSIDE HELP. Our school board and local sponsors are our only means of funding. But again, its OK. Yeah, I wish that our robot got some help from engineers and we had more money. But we have the greatest of times and when our robot hits the field, it realllys shows. I am proud of "Sweet FEEET" and my team. Don't be discourage and just have fun. |
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#14
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Re: engineer bots
Quote:
It isn't about money, we had a huge machine shop at our disposal (community college has a machining program) complete with good CNCs and everything. we even had a high schooler who was in the CNC programming associates degree. We also had money, the college said they would pay for everything. What we didn't have was lots of engineers who have what only time can give... experience. I am glad we didn't, i am very proud of our bot. I wish that every FIRST team could feel such pride in THEIR work. No, I'm not going to resort to name calling like some of these threads do. I am not angry, i just feel cheated. I also feel for other high schoolers who may have been cheated. *EDITED OUT for lack of clarity* In many ways FIRST is becoming commercialized. but sponsors are a necessary evil. It is reasons like that that i am against having a big 3 company sponsor us. Last edited by Validius : 20-03-2005 at 20:06. |
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#15
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Re: engineer bots
The point?
At GLR this year we saw teams who's bots were obviously totally designed by the engineers. While this is legal i do not think it is with the spirit of FIRST. There were 4 builders (including myself) and 1 programmer who did 70% of the work on team 1549's robot. A few more guys jumped in in the last 2 weeks. Except for our passive gripper and the winch drum everything was designed, made and put together by high school and college students. Our bot, while very good (when the drive program isn't screwed up and I'm not getting ramming penalties), cant measure up to these superbots. There is nothing that can really be done so i guess i am just ranting for my own sanity. I just wanted to point out the unfair advantage that many teams have. Also, i cannot conclude a post about building the bot without thanking the mentors, particularly Kieth and Gary. Without your guidance, passing on the wisdom of past experience and teaching the team how to be a team we could never have gotten this done. Thanks guys! Hi Validius! I can sincerely understand your frustration. The only thing that I can suggest is that you change your perspective just a little. It sounds like you had a good experience with your team and mentors this year and I'm sure learned a lot and hopefully developed some new relationships. You should be rightfully proud of your accomplishments and of the product you and your team produced. That is what FIRST is really about. You certainly sound "inspired" and that is the most important aspect of FIRST (IMO). Focus on your teams accomplishments. Every team is different. Just try to make yours the most excellent it can be and I assure you that your experience with FIRST will be of great value and satisfaction to you. I can understand how easy it is for it to seem like people are "cheating" when it looks as though professional engineers built the robot with little participation from students. When this does happen, the people who are shortchanged the most are the students who didn't have the opportunity to participate in building the robot. I am an engineer so I know how hard it is to not jump in and "build" the robot by insisting on what I think is best. I also know that we end up with a better robot because I don't! Seriously! You don't have to be an engineer to have great ideas. I see my role as trying to help the students implement THEIR ideas. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. Finding solutions is what engineering is about. I also know that the best way to learn is by trying and, sometimes failing. I remember and learned a whole lot more from the mistakes I made as a young engineer than the things that worked out right out of the box. You know what? I still make mistakes (though I like to think not as many) and I still learn from them. Don't let your frustration impact your "sanity". Be the very best you can be and inspire your team to seek the same goal. Make the maximum use of whatever resources you have at your disposal. There will always be teams with more and teams with less. Try to focus on getting the maximum amount out of all the resources you and your team have. If you do that, you can be very proud of your accomplishments, no matter what another team does or does not do. Best of luck to you! (sorry for the long winded reply!) |
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