Winning Defensive Allaince?

[George A.]

Ok it ask come up numerous times that an allinace that sacrifices a member to play defense is basically shooting themsleves in the foot. I pose this to you. I'm willing to bet that the winning allaince will have two offensive robot and a robot that is an AWESOME defender.

If two capable teams say "let us handle the offense, and you cover the other allaince" I would let them. Let me put it this way. If 56 and 71, and I were on the same allaince and 56 and 71 said they wanted me to run defense "WHY WOULDN'T I" I know that they are fully capable to handle things on their own. Take teams 11 and 25 for instance (ok I'm a little biased but these are the only two that fit my point) Teams 11 and 25 are two teams that can push anyone around the field They can still cap if need be but their true strenght lies in their beastly drive train. You pair 56, 71, and 11 or 25 together and you have a championship medal around your neck. Everyone is assuming that one robot can only take on one other robot, But as proven at NJ a good defensive robot can keep all three opponents occupied is they're good enough.

So keep in mind that in the elims you get to pick your partners. So their defense isn't going to be some run of the mill defense they're putting up. It's going to be a defense that you pick out yourself.

Just something to consider in these next 5 weeks. Let me know what you think.

[Paul Copioli]

I'll take the bait. Right now, I'll put up my three offensive bots (and I am being biased) 71, 217, and 229 against ANY combination of 2 offense and 1 defense. My three offense will win 90% of the time. Now, if you put up another highly offensive trio (for argument's sake let's say 179, 233, and 67) I would say my chances are now 50/50.

The logic is very simple: I can put tetras in three places at the same time where you can only put two. This game is about divide and conquer. I'm not saying that blocking won't happen, but that third robot must be able to score and it's primary mission should be scoring.

This is the year of the fingers and not the thumbs (don't ask because it is a long story, just know that offensive robots are fingers and defensive robots are thumbs)!!

There, are you happy? I took your bait. Let the games begin...

[George A.]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

I'll take the bait. Right now, I'll put up my three offensive bots (and I am being biased) 71, 217, and 229 against ANY combination of 2 offense and 1 defense. My three offense will win 90% of the time. Now, if you put up another highly offensive trio (for argument's sake let's say 179, 233, and 67) I would say my chances are now 50/50.

The logic is very simple: I can put tetras in three places at the same time where you can only put two. This game is about divide and conquer. I'm not saying that blocking won't happen, but that third robot must be able to score and it's primary mission should be scoring.

This is the year of the fingers and not the thumbs (don't ask because it is a long story, just know that offensive robots are fingers and defensive robots are thumbs)!!

There, are you happy? I took your bait. Let the games begin...

You say that you can cap in three places where as I can only cap in two...what do you think our third robot is doing? Sitting in the end zone? Sorry if that sounded sarcastic but the whole point of having a third defensive robot is to make sure that the other allaince only has 2 or even one robot capping

[Swampdude]

I'm just going to agree with Paul for the most part, but both sides have their advantages if used effectively. As I've seen both types win and loose depending on the strategies applied.

[Ian Curtis]

Defense works really well. Defense doesn't necassarily mean strong drivetrain. We figured out in the quarterfinals that with out claw we could grab anyones tetra (who had a stick through the tetra) and either steal of push it out of place. Hence we could play defense on two bots instead of one. If you can dislodge their tetra they have to go back and get another one where just pushign them around just well pushes them around. They just go and try again instead of having to go get another tetra.

[nobrakes8]

At UTC team 1071 prevented team 230 from scoreing any points. We stole 2 tetra's (6 points and those 2 would have been stacked) and we prevented another two with our arm (another 6 points).. Had we played offense, we would have probably still won, even if we had scored just 1 tetra (we average 4-6 tetra's per match). To be honest, I don't think team 1071 ramed or bumped team 230 it was strictly the arm working

The alliance with team 1071, 69, 126 won the finals match by 12 points, the amount that was stolen and blocked.

I can see the point about 3 teams scoreing vs 2, but that would be a poorly executed defensive plan. Our team knows what types of robots we can block easily and play defense against and we know our limits which is why the few times 1071 does play defense they are sucessful 9 out of 10 times in preventing a team from scoreing.

[George A.]

You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won't be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND

[Josh Fritsch]

Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.

You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won't be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND

I would agree with you except for that the layout of this game, there are a possible 6 goals that you could go for at all times and due to that fact, you will always be closer to one than the person is trying to defend you is. Any good capper should be able to cap without much of a problem if they reach the goal first, even with a little resistance. Ill agree with Paul and stick with my 3 offensive robots I am skeptical only because I have not seen it done yet, not seen a successful 2 offensive 1 defensive alliance in the elims win yet personally.

[Paul Copioli]

A few more clarifications:

1. I didn't say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can't score, they already have an advantage.

2. No way can even the best defensive bot shut down two good offensive robots in eliminations. The scoring possibilities are too great and the advantage goes to the offensive robot. Think of it this way: a two on one in soccer (one goal) is very hard to stop. What if both offensive players had a ball and there were 5 other goals to score into? C'mon, there is no way the best defensive bot will stop two good scorers.

-Paul

[Stephen Kowski]

alright I'll bite Paul. I disagree I think you can have 2 offense 1 defense alliance work well in the eliminations....I have seen defensive robots shut more than one offensive team at a time. Also in a elimination round(s) I watched this exact scenario where three offensive teams were defeated handily by two offensive bots and one defensive. The key was the defensive bot knew when it would and would not get a penalty...moreover they did not have a high torque ability just the ability to cause a nuisance whenever the other alliance went to cap.

[Swampdude]

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?

I personally don't think the best defense will be played with a strong slow drive base. It will require a good arm that can get in the way of caps and get there fast. Shoving bots in goals only works on some designs. But swatting caps or covering goals works all the time. I haven't seen this "smart" defense played yet.

[Paul Copioli]

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper.

Our 3rd alliance member at Detroit (team 301) capped 5 or 6 a match the entire elimination rounds.

I am done debating (not because I don't think it's fun, but because I have to get some real work done) this issue and I will see you all at The Championship. I will give an update from The MidWest Regional on how defensive strategies worked.

-Paul

[xzvrw2]

[quote=Swampdude]The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?[quote]


well for one there is only 2 rounds. and for two my team (65) was a SECOND round pick at Midwest and we usually scored about 6 tetras a match. i think our highest was like 8 one time. so that SECOND round pick could get you more then 1-2 tetras.

[Allison K]

Based on the 226 experience, I'm going to say that 3 offensive bots is the key. In the finals in Detroit, we did the best our first match when we went completely offensive, and the next two matches were progressively worse as we stepped up the defense. We won our first match by a landslide, and lost the second one by 1 point, and lost the third by a lot. I know (well, nothing is ever certatin, but I'm 95% sure) that if I had worried less about defense in the second match we would have won it.

~Allison

[Lil' Lavery]

During the qualification rounds this is a very vailid strategy, as most alliances wont have more than 1 or 2 strong offensive bots. But during the eliminations, particularly between higher seeds or at more competitive events (such as nationals) it wouldnt hold true. In the Chesepeake regional for instance, team 173 was probably the strongest force in the entire regionals. During the finals, team 122 tried to stop them, and let it more or less become a 2v2 match-up. But 173 was able to slip by the opposing defense enough to let them score enough points and to help their alliance to get solid victories on their way to winning the regional. NO defense is perfect, and any strong offensive robot can beat a defensive robot enough to allow them to score enough points to decide the match. Look at the Colorado regional for another example. Teams 118 and 233 were dominant offensive threats. Every opposing alliance would send defensive robots to try and slow them down. Slow them down they did, but not enough to make 233 and 118 lose a single match during the eliminations. 233 adn 118 would crush any opposing defense and win the regional. The example is shown again in VCU. The #8 alliance managed to advance to the finals by playing very tough defense, but they would lose to a stronger offensive alliance. During the first match of the finals, Team 401 (who was on the winning #3 seeded alliance) was knocked down early, limiting them to the 4 points they scored in auto. In the process the robot that knocked them over was disabled (but not penelized or DQed). This is exactly as if they had both just been in a shoving match for the entire match, and niether scored a point. The #3 alliance would win the match. Proving again, for the 3rd time in the 3 regionals I attended, that offense wins matches and championships.