[moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

[ducttapejason]

Let me start this post by saying how much I love teams 22 and 980. My own high school owns its entire team to Wendy Wooten, and the rest of Chatworth High School. And i always get much use from the thunderbots copier as the Pit Admin Manager.

But at the Silicon Valley Regional a 30 pt penalty was called against the alliance that was against 254. This is the most controversial thing I have seen in my 5 years of FIRST. There was no flag thrown on the play, and i will let others describe their eyewitness accounts of the events, since i did not see the exact infraction as it occurred, by i was next to the loading station and saw no flags. All that I did see was the Regional Director, a Bellarmine alumni, discussing with the head referee DURING the match. I have been a referee during the match and you never take your eyes off the game. Also the rules are that the decisions that the referees make are final, and are not subject to intervention by the teams, or anybody else including staff.

I hope that the kids of Bellarmine at least appreciate what NASA has given to them. I know that if I was handed everything, i may not be the most thankful if i did not realize it.

Congratulations to 22 and 980 for their continued success as they strive to improve themselves, and the FIRST community.

Next week I will be a referee at the Southern California event. I will make sure that impartiality will be my watchword as i try to keep the game fair and just.

[Brandon Martus]

And, to test out the moderated forum (and keep this thread 'nice') this is being moved to the moderated forums. If you're new to the moderated forum, this is how it works: Any and all replies must be approved by a moderator before they are made public.

[abeD]

Well from experience from UCF and volunteering I got to stand next to the referee for the entire day. And sometimes they wouldn't throw a flag just make a note of it or tell another ref. Sometimes they wouldn't say anything at all but they would still make the call. And yes I did talk to referees during the match that doesn't mean they're not watching.

[jgannon]

It sounds to me like you're making some harsh accusations, and I'm interested to hear your rationale. I assume that the "Regional Director" to which you refer is Jason Morella. Though he is one of the founders of 254, I am certain, both by virtue of his reputation and of my contact with him, that he has more candor than to try to swing a match to his old team. Someone with a lack of integrity does not ascend to a position of managing the entire west coast for FIRST. Admittedly, it would not be a particularly good idea to distract a referee during a match, but this mistake is undoubtedly a product of human nature, not corruption. There is also no indication (from your post, at least) that this event directly contributed to the penalty.

Originally Posted by ducttapejason

I hope that the kids of Bellarmine at least appreciate what NASA has given to them. I know that if I was handed everything, i may not be the most thankful if i did not realize it.

NASA provides a great deal of resources to team 254; it's no secret. You can be thrilled for their success and the strength of their partnership (compared to their early pittance of an existance) as they help to support other teams and advance the ideals of FIRST, or you can think of them as the Yankees of FIRST, a team that perennially buys victories. There are many folks on both sides of the fence, and you're free to think as you wish. We're all a little jealous of 254... we all wish we could win a regional EVERY SINGLE YEAR. However, to let jealousy overtake you, and to publicly accuse the students of being ungrateful is ingracious. I look forward to hearing other accounts of this event, but at this point I see more frustration than intentional injustice.

[jrmjames]

Jason,
I can understand you are upset about the outcome of the SVR. It is always difficult when a penalty decides the outcome of a very important match. However I do not believe this to be unfair. The regional director you are referring to is a very honest and fair man who I would never believe to use his place of power in that regional to manipulate the outcome in any way. Furthermore the students on team 254 work very hard and do a very good job. They also help many many other teams. They may be a very large organization now, but they started from one of the smallest teams in FIRST. They have built themselves through success and perseverance trying to make themselves into a team of sportmanship, education, and everything else FIRST stands for. Everything is not handed to them. They work very hard and deserve to be congratulated just as 22 and 980 do and the teams they played against. The finals were awesome matches with many awesome robots. The point of FIRST is education and sportsmanship so instead of pointing fingers why dont we just recognize all the hard work that was put into that regional and the good experiences that were gained from it.

[LittleKesich]

Hey, Im kesich from team 1097. I was there in the Marauder suit watching the final match. We heard the penalty called and were very unhappy. 2 of our members went to a computer to look through the rules. Rule number 3 states that a team is able to hit one of their own teammates that is in the loading zone. There is also a specific point in there saying that is a red team hits a blue team causing the blue team to hit a read team in the loading zone, then there is no penalty called. We found this rule once the next round had started, so there was nothing we could do about it.

But what really angers me is that between the matches we tried to show the refs out video of the match and we couldnt. We has 2 cameras taping the round and both clearly showed that our teams robot never even hit the other teams robot, and that the cheesypoofs team hit out teams bot in the loading zoan under their own power.

I realize that there is nothinbg that can be done about this now, but i would like to make this little fact evident to the other teams incase it occurs again some way or another.

Thanks,
-Kesich

[phrozen solyd]

We are deeply saddened and disappointed that some people may feel this way about our team, as well as FIRST Regional Director Jason Morrella.

Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot. We wish we could reach out to each and every team out there, and we are always more than happy to contribute our resources for the good of others.

We also would like to express our support for Jason Morrella, FIRST Regional Director and Bellarmine alumnus. We have great confidence in the fact that he lives by the values of integrity and honesty taught at his high school alma mater.

I have been involved with FIRST for seven years. So I think I can say there probably been at least one or two worse calls in FIRST history.

Firstly refs are human, the rules this year are complicated. I was head inspector at SVR, and all the rules and documentaion come in two Phone Book sized volumes. When your trying to make a quick decision on a complicated action, sometimes you can't put your finger on the correct rule.
I think the discussion between the Head Ref and the regional director was about that exact wording of the rule or rule number to explain the infraction.
I know this because after the match I was asked specifically if I knew the 'rule number' for the penalty assessed for pushing another robot and causing an unsafe condition.

Now I am a mentor for 254 - so I can't claim to be impartial, but I was on the field at the time of the action, on the opposit corner from the site of the infraction. What I saw was a red robot push 254 into another red robot that was in the human loading zone. I did not see a flag thrown either - but I wasn't in a position to see a flag of any color on the floor.

My understanding (opinion) of what the reason for the penalty was, by pushing a blue robot into a red robot, the red alliance was causing an unsafe condition, and the possibilty that a human (red) player would get hurt. (I believe this is called "causing a cascade.") Whether this is fair or not or deserved a 30 point penalty, I'll leave it up to others to decide. Now I don't like winning because of a penalty or questionable call, and I like losing because of one even less. Sometimes it happens. I don't think this was a bad call, but bad calls and mistakes are part of any game - you need to accept it and move on.

[ducttapejason]

Originally Posted by phrozen solyd

We are deeply saddened and disappointed that some people may feel this way about our team, as well as FIRST Regional Director Jason Morrella.

again..... Jason Morella is incredibly professional and I have much respect for him.

Originally Posted by phrozen solyd

Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot. We wish we could reach out to each and every team out there, and we are always more than happy to contribute our resources for the good of others.

let me explain my views of 254.

NASA has essentially bought a FIRST team... not a bad investment at all. They put many great, talented, smart, and enthusiastic individuals, such as Jason, and others like Dr. Federman, who just in general kick a lot of $@#$@#$@#, and have done great things for FIRST. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

The problem occurs where I would imagine that NASA would love to parade around their wise investment into the youth of america. This team loves to strut around like the own the place because NASA has made them their poster child. There is nothing wrong with a team being NASA poster child it is in fact great for FIRST... but this is not professional sports. Being a FIRST poster child means building the best robot you can (#254 and every other team), helping out other teams as much as possible (#254 and others), and being placed up on a pillar as a model for others to follow (#254).

Being on #254 it is most likely that you have a great advantage in life. You go to a great school, and play for the winning team. This is what i meant in my original post. The kids of 254 ( or the majority i have seen) need to stop strutting around like the own the place simply because you do.

Keep on winning, keep on helping out other teams, keep on lending out resources, but go out and buy some modesty.

Congratulations to your team, and i hope that you continue to challenge yourselves and the rest of the FIRST community. You are up on a pedestal for a reason, quit looking down at everyone. Reach down and grab others to bring them up as well.

[jgannon]

It's obvious that the original poster has a chip on his shoulder, and more than his share of jealousy. I think that several cool heads in this thread have already sufficiently responded to this, but there's one point that still needs to be addressed.

It's no secret that well-funded teams tend to perform better (though this isn't always the case). 71, 111, and 254 (among others... those are the teams that come to mind at the moment) all have a vast amount of resources available to them, and they make full use of them. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. You could accuse them of being like the Yankees of FIRST, of buying victories, but if the kids are being inspired, what's the big deal? Nonetheless, this still troubles me:

Originally Posted by ducttapejason

Congratulations to your team, and i hope that you continue to challenge yourselves and the rest of the FIRST community. You are up on a pedestal for a reason, quit looking down at everyone. Reach down and grab others to bring them up as well.

Team 254 won the National Chairman's Award last year. This makes them the ONE team in the whole country that best exemplifies the ideals of FIRST. This award cannot be bought. You can get a huge grant and a whole room full of engineers, but that alone will earn you nothing in the eyes of the judges. How did 254 earn this honor, and how do they continue to deserve it? By reaching down from their "pedestal" of success and experience to help those who haven't been as fortunate in collecting resources. They've started teams in Alaska and Hawaii, and they've mentored several other teams. They are helping to start Utah's first team this year. They mentor FLL teams, support an FLL tournament, and do other community outreach. And, as I'm sure you've seen at any event they attend, they bring a machine shop trailer to help other teams fix their robots, which has saved our team and countless others in competition. If you're still in doubt, you can read their 2004 Chairman's submission. If you must, be jealous of their success. We all wish we could have as many trophies as them. However, don't let your jealousy drive you to discount how they have inspired students and advanced the ideals of FIRST.

[santosh]

Originally Posted by jgannon

It's no secret that well-funded teams tend to perform better (though this isn't always the case). 71, 111, and 254 (among others... those are the teams that come to mind at the moment)

71 is not a well funded team with their robot. They work incrdibly hard at raising money. A very large portion of their money goes to transporting their enormous not to mention cool team. Thy may have been in the past, but they have had a few issues. Team 71 has to fight as hard as anyone for their money.

I have nothing against team 254 and this segmnt of this post is not for them and I have no clue about their robot/organization except for the fact that thy won the National Chairmans Award last year.

But although FIRST is for inspiring kids to become engineers and for learning how to become a good individual, the competition is still a portion of this organization.

I just feel that the teams should not have other people fixing their robots. They built it, they should fix it. I understan that they will help others with their robot if asked, but shouldn't it be the students first responsibility to try it themselves. FIRST is a learning opportunity. I understand if there is a problem that a student has no idea on how to fix, but atleast they should be there to watch and learn about how to do it.

Cheesy Poofs you guys are great. All your outreach is amazing.

Thr is a reason they have all their money and whatnot. I am basing this off of things I have read in this thread (that rhymed). They had to work for it just like everyone else works for theirs. They were picked for their sponsorship. There is reason for this and it is because they are a great team who deserves what ever they have.

[ScoutingNerd175]

I think that almost every team has experienced what it feels to loose an important match because of a penalty. This is especially true in this year's game where penalties have played a very important role. I know that our team has experienced this. At BAE this year, there were quite a few penalties. In our last qualifying match a 30 point penalty was called against our team because we touched a robot in the human player loading zone. Our robot had been tipped over at this point and we were attempting to self-right, which we did eventually accomplish. Unfortunately, during our attempts to self-right, we apparently touched a robot in the loading zone. The referees then called a 30 point penalty against us causing us to loose the match and dropping us down to 7th seed. No one on our team saw this penalty, but we were all very focused on our robot. I personally (and most of the team members that I have discussed this with) are sure that the penalty did indeed happen. We are sure of this simply because the penalty was called and we trust the refs to do their job.
As for the Cheesy Poofs supposedly having everything handed to them, I doubt that is true. I have not had that much personal experience with them, but I have heard many positive things about them. We are lucky enough to be a chairmans award team, so we get to go to nationals every year, and we have a very good sponsor (Hamilton Sundstrand) and mentors who donate unbelievable amounts of time. These are things that a great many teams do not get. However no amount of funding, school support, and helpful mentors can "just hand" a team dedicated team members who are willing to work hard for not only their own team but others as well. Nobody can "just hand them" team spirit and Gracious Professionalism. These are things that the Cheesy Poofs certainly seem to have. (They do not award the National Chairmans Award lightly)

[Veselin Kolev]

It is difficult to judge a team, if you have never seen how they work. Many of the comments on the thread state this, and it is true. There is always some doubt when the only people that can say what goes on in the 254 shop are the people that work their.

That is why I personally wanted to go see them at their NASA workshop, to see how they work, why their team is so successful. I met the 254 guys there about a month ago (mid april) and checked out a day of their world. It was a few days before nationals, and they were busy, playing practice rounds on their spare robot, packing the crate, charging batteries, etc. However, how many NASA guys were there? Three, and they are all college students. Just as Bill Gold said in an earlier post, 254 is guided by the advice of three college students, Al, EJ, and Bill himself. In no way is anything given to them, in no way is their build season easy. These three mentors work tirelessly day and night, working with the students to make them the team that they are. I went there trying to steal some knowledge for myself: what can I do to beat them? As I left that night, all I was thinking is: how can I be more like them?

I truly appreciate the fact that people from 254 let me come over and see how they work. I hope people realize that Bellermine Robotics is a SELF MADE team. They have, on their walls, pinned up all the awards banners they have won over the years. They have a lot of them, and I feel that they fully deserve every one.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by phrozen solyd

Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot.

This statement couldn't be any more true. I can't count how many times Team 100 has needed a part and turned to 254, or had to use their mobile shop, among other things. Anytime anybody needs anything, Team 254 will be there doinhg their best to help. You don't win Nation Chairmans Award for no reason.

One instance in particular stands out to me. In 2004 we went into the last week of build with a robot that was over 30 lbs overweight. When 254 found out, a team member personally called me and offered for us to come down and setup shop in their lab for the last week, so that we could work together to do whatever we could to get underweight. You wouldn't expect that from most people, but that's ordinary for the Cheesy Poofs.

Like Bill, when I started my FIRST career, I too looked at the Cheesy Poofs as being "handed everything" and it was unfair, they couldn't possibly have done any of that themselves, etc, etc.

I have to say, now that I actually know what FIRST is about (not the robot folks, it's just a means to an end) I'm ashamed I ever acted like I did. I'm good friends with members of 254, and I have an insight into what really goes on, rather that what I convinced myself, out of ignorance, was happening.

This anecdote relates specificaly to 254, but the same goes for every team out there. You cannot accuse them OF A SINGLE THING until you've been on that team and know how it works, or been around them a whole heck of a lot. As I've repeatedly said, even if they did have all engineers build it, who cares? if the students are being inspired (and they clearly are) who are you to tell them how to run their program?

If everyone who spent their time criticizing 254 and other successful teams spent half as much effort trying to improve their own, and strive for the goals that the Poofs do, FIRST would be a much better place.

[psquared89]

At the Sacramento Regional this year our pits were right next to the Cheesy Poofs, being on drive team, I spent most of my time in our pits, but it was interesting to me to notice that their pits were frequently mostly empty. They weren't there because they were helping out other teams. They did not seem stuck-up to me, they had one small, modest table with some old awards on it. For all that I'd heard about the Cheesy Poofs, they seemed like a pretty nice team to me. I remember last year all the jokes that our teams had about the announcer being dyslexic (245 vs 254). One quick side comment that I'd like to throw out is if you really want to "stick it to them", beat them on the field, not off of it. To quote lots of people from the legendary "engineering bots" threads, "sure, we get tired of losing to the same teams year after year, but, when you finally beat them, it feels great". I know that for my team, beating the Cheesy Poofs did not have the same significance as it did for our partners, 766 and 1072, but we worked hard to do it, and there's no denying it, it felt great.