Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?

[Kit Gerhart]

I don't want to be un-gracious and un-professional , but at a regional we recently attended, there was an, uh, curious lack of knowledge of the the rules demonstrated by the officials, and there was at least one "new" rule added for the competition in question.

On the Friday, there were essentially no loading zone interference penalties called. You could drive into a robot collecting tetras from either the HP or auto loading zone, and not receive a penalty. Later in the event, some such penalties were given (in one case to the wrong alliance), but in the quarter final round, 10 point penalties were given for LZ interference rather than the 30 points specified in the rules. Did even the head referee read the rules?

Then, there was the "special rule." The coaches were not allowed to cross the "starting line," even after the end of the autonomous portion of the match. Very interesting.

I guess my point is this. Is there a system for assuring that head referees know the rules? Are there any guidelines for training the sometimes inexperienced "associate" referees? When I was a referee at the Championship in '03, I was very familiar with the rules and the game, but the head referee had a very useful meeting with the rest of us going over the specifics of what a referee needed to look for during matches. Apparently that didn't happen at the event I recently attended.

We all know that referees are volunteers and we appreciate their work, but it appears that there needs to be a better system for making sure they are prepared to perform their important service to the teams.

[Revolverx7]

Refs vary from regional to regional with some knowing the rules in and out, and some not even recognizing the simplest of offenses. I can only hope that only the best of refs can referee at the nationals. The thing that really bothers me is when the refs called a drivers meeting to state and specify certain offenses the refs then called the exact opposite of what they had ruled in the meeting. I can only assume that the nationals will have the best refs possible.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Revolverx7

I can only assume that the nationals will have the best refs possible.

More like, whoever FIRST can get to sign up.

Many people who are on teams right now signed up to ref at events other than where their own team was competing. Lots of these teams are probably going to nationals, meaning FIRST has already lost a large pool of qualified individuals.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by Cory

More like, whoever FIRST can get to sign up.

Many people who are on teams right now signed up to ref at events other than where their own team was competing. Lots of these teams are probably going to nationals, meaning FIRST has already lost a large pool of qualified individuals.

I was a ref at the championship in 2003 after the team I was with at the time, 1062, was unable to qualify for and attend the "big event." I will volunteer to ref again at nats in the event that my team does not attend. From my experience, the regionals are the events where refs would be harder to find. At least I have not been in a position where I would be available and willing to ref a regional. Of course, if someone would pay my way to a regional which my team was not competing in, I'd do it.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Cory

More like, whoever FIRST can get to sign up.

Many people who are on teams right now signed up to ref at events other than where their own team was competing. Lots of these teams are probably going to nationals, meaning FIRST has already lost a large pool of qualified individuals.

...although if Redateam were in Archimedes, couldn't FIRST theoretically place that trained ref on, say, Galileo?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Billfred

...although if Redateam were in Archimedes, couldn't FIRST theoretically place that trained ref on, say, Galileo?

But if that ref is a mentor for said team, they'd be needed by the team, and could not volunteer.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

But if that ref is a mentor for said team, they'd be needed by the team, and could not volunteer.

Says who? BeachBot mentors have volunteered at many regionals. Admitedly, they have done so as inspectors and safety officers. However, I know of a former 696 student who refereed at L.A. where 696 competed. I don't think that he was any easier on 696 than on any other team. I can't say that for all refs who have a team affiliation, however.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by EricH

Says who? BeachBot mentors have volunteered at many regionals. Admitedly, they have done so as inspectors and safety officers. However, I know of a former 696 student who refereed at L.A. where 696 competed. I don't think that he was any easier on 696 than on any other team. I can't say that for all refs who have a team affiliation, however.

I didn't mean to say that exclusively, because they're on a team at the event, they cannot volunteer, because of impartiality, or any other reasons, but rather that if you are a technical mentor for a team, the team will probably need your help throughout the competition, which would rule out the possibility of refereeing.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

I didn't mean to say that exclusively, because they're on a team at the event, they cannot volunteer, because of impartiality, or any other reasons, but rather that if you are a technical mentor for a team, the team will probably need your help throughout the competition, which would rule out the possibility of refereeing.

Depends on the team. 330 has a reliable bot, so we can spare mentors unless something really big breaks, but for other teams, say 1697 (Gyros, who were a rookie at LA and had a robot that kept breaking or not being ready), mentors may be in short supply.
If a team has a lot of students and help is needed, the team can spare the students if they are needed. I spent Houston nationals resetting Galileo and two teammates filled in (at least on Thursday) to do the same thing on Newton. We only had 14 students total on the team.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by EricH

Depends on the team. ...

I agree. I'm a technical mentor and an event volunteer.

My team is fortunate to have several technically strong sponsors and mentors, and an excellent core group of technically oriented teachers. Our students probably get more technical guidance and suggestions than they really need (or want?) during the build period. By the time we get to regional competitions, they are ready to handle what comes their way in the pit and on the field.

I started volunteering as a robot inspector in 2003. I enjoy seeing other robots up close. Sometimes I offer our scouts some advice, but more often they have already seen whatever I point out.

This year, another mentor on our team also volunteered as an inspector on Thursday at St. Louis, then was asked to serve as a referee on Friday and Saturday.

IMHO, mentors make excellent volunteers at FRC events because we have already committed several weeks effort to understanding the specific objectives, strategies, and rules for that year's challenge. FIRST always needs more volunteers. Mentors who anticipate having time available at an event should consider volunteering, particularly in areas where their detailed knowledge of the rules would be of greatest help; e.g., as referees and inspectors.

This year I served as lead robot inspector at St. Louis. I also helped with robot inspections at Buckeye. And I will be inspecting robots again at the Championship, where I hope to see many other team mentors who have time to volunteer.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Richard

I agree. I'm a technical mentor and an event volunteer...
And I will be inspecting robots again at the Championship, where I hope to see many other team mentors who have time to volunteer.

I also am attached to a team, 111, and performed as lead inspector at Boilermaker and Midwest and will also be at Nationals. I will not inspect my own team, but always leave that to another inspector. As lead inspector, I interact with the field judges and IFI personel to make sure that all participants have a great time and run everytime they go out. I will also work with teams to make sure they are ready to compete, not just inspected but really able to compete. If you come to play, it is my duty to help you play whether I am an inspector or not.
One thing I do is let every team know that I am a Wildstang mentor before I start inspection. I give that team an oportunity to ask for a different inspector if they feel intimidated by my team affiliation. And yes, you will see me wear team colors on Saturday, and I will cheer for my team's alliance. You will get a full, unbiased decision on your robot modifications and weight and size when needed regardless of the color of the shirt I am wearing and regardless of your qualifying position, your action on or off the field, or your latest interaction with my team's robot. You will get all of these things because I am committed to gracious professionalism and the desire to see that every team has a fair chance to compete on a level playing field.


And just so everyone knows, Wildstang team shirts are ALL colors and I take that to mean we are on ALL teams. If you need help, look for a tie dye shirt.

[Eric301]

Our team has competed in both Detroit and Palmetto. We found that these 2 regionals were very different. We felt that the refs in Detroit called the rules very fairly and very closely to the way they were written. When there was a question, the head ref explained the ruling to our all student drive team.

Unfortunately, Palmetto was much different. In Palmetto during the driver meeting, the head ref stressed that any robot that either broke the plane of the driver station or approached the driver station with an elevated tetra that could fly over the Plexiglas, would be shut off in the name of safety. We were amazed when we witnessed 3 different tetras fly over the Plexiglas with no penalties or disablement. During the semi-finals, a robot arm extended around the end of the player station and came within inches of our arm operator, still no penalty or disablement.

We witnessed human elements jumping off the floor in order to hang a tetra on a robot in Palmetto with no penalty. We got penalized in Detroit because our human element stood on his tip-toes.

In the final match that determined the Palmetto champion, one of our alliance partners (the number 1 seed) was pulled over by an opponent. There was no penalty. In Detroit, we were told that tipping over other robots would not be tolerated.

In Palmetto, our arm was ripped from our robot as we attempted to cap the center goal. The offending robot did not have a tetra, was not attempting to stack, and chose to attach our robot's arm 10ft in the air instead of blocking the goal. In Detroit, we were told that we would be penalized for using an arm to attack a robot high in the air. Fortunately, we were able to make a new arm segment and re-assemble our robot in time for the next match.

In qualifying match number 56 in Palmetto, it was ruled that a tetra was being supported by another tetra that was hanging above it. I guess gravity points upward in Palmetto. That ruling cost us the tetra, a row, and the match. I will include a picture of the "unseated" tetra.

In each of these cases, the head ref refused to speak to our student drive coach and would only address an adult. Our 18 year old drive coach and senior was highly offended. In her 4 years with First, she had never been treated that way.

This is my 3rd year as a mentor. I have been extremely surprised at how well matches have been ref'ed in the past. I think First has failed this year in 2 ways. #1 The refs have not been trained in a way that would lead to calls that are consistent to each other or to the rule book. #2 This game has so many different elements and rules, that it is very difficult to call. There are 6 robots going to 8 loading stations and 9 goals and there are 6 human elements. There is a lot going on. In the end, the refs may be forced to make scoring calls on each of the 9 goals and remember how many tetras of each color slinkied off of one of the goals.

Even with our second place finish in Palmetto and the warm weather, our team unanimously decided not to return to Palmetto next year.

Oh yeah, please take a look at the attached picture of the tetra that was judged to be not fully seated.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by DukesAZ

I have always been a little bothered by the fact that many refs/inspectors/judges are active members of FIRST teams and in many cases teams that are attending the particular regional that they are volunteering at. On several occasions, I have even seen volunteers throw on a team t-shirt and walk with a team when they win an award! How can you have any faith in their impartiality when you see stuff like that?

There is nothing wrong with volunteers being open about their team affiliation or receiving an award that they worked hard for as a member of that team. Wouldn't it be worse if they tried to keep their team affiliation a secret?

At Philly, all refs/inspectors/judges signed a conflict of interest form (quoted below), with rules about behavior toward their team. I don’t know if other regionals are using this form, but it is a good idea to set up the guidelines up front.

Originally Posted by Conflict of Interest and Disclosure Statement

By signing this document, I, the undersigned agree to disclose any direct relationship I may have with a FIRST Robotics Team. I also agree, if I do have a relationship with a competing FIRST Robotics Team, to disqualify myself from any discussions, judging, inspecting or refereeing in which involve my team.
In the Inspection position: I will disclose to the Lead Robot Inspector any direct affiliation with a FIRST Robotics Team and I will not inspect or attempt to influence any other inspector in the inspection of my team’s robot.
In the Refereeing position: I will disclose to the Head Referee any direct affiliation with a FIRST Robotics Team and I will not involve myself in the refereeing decisions regarding my team.
In the Field Supervisor position: I will disclose to the Field Manager and/or Head Referee any direct affiliation with a FIRST Robotics Team and I will not attempt to influence robot inspectors, referees or judges or involve myself in any conversations regarding my team.
In the Judging position: I will disclose to the Judge Advisor any direct affiliation with a FIRST Robotics Team and will not participate in any discussions or award decisions regarding this team or otherwise attempt to influence decisions relating to awards my team might be considered for.

This is the first year I have seen this form, but FIRST has always known which teams the volunteers were from. The volunteer application form asks you for FIRST team experience, mostly to make sure you are qualified for your position.

I've been a member of 365 for 5 years and a robot inspector for 3. While I’m inspecting, it is pretty easy to tell that I’m a MOE member. In 2003 and 2004, I had permanent MOE Green hair for all the competitions . There was a shortage of volunteers this year at Pitt, so I was asked to help out with the inspections Thursday night. I didn’t get a crew shirt or badge, so I inspected two robots in my MOE shirt. It was a little awkward when I had to explain the situation to both teams, but the inspections went off w/o a hitch.

[slickguy2007]

Originally Posted by Cory

But if that ref is a mentor for said team, they'd be needed by the team, and could not volunteer.

That's not true. Our mentor was a ref at the championship event in our division. Every time we came onto the field, he would take a break and let someone else temporarily sub in so it wouldn't be bias. We needed him with us for the trip, and he was with us... just down on the field




GO 1403!!!

[nobrakes8]

It seems to me most of the problems are out in areas that are fairly new to FIRST (like denver and the west coast). UTC I believe had most of the same refs from 2004 and these guys were really good.

FIRST is like any sport, bad calls will be made.. Who cares? We just have to get over it and move on because no matter how much we complain they won't change a call.

Look at baseball and how many strikes are called balls or balls called strikes. In basketball some fouls are called offenseive when the should be defensive etc.. It's all part of the game.