Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

[AJunx]

Imagine that we are living in a perfect world, in which U.S. FIRST has all the money they could ever need. Should teams be allowed to attend more than ONE regional event? Please read below prior to voting.


[Reader] “Andrew, what on earth are you talking about? Of course teams should be able to attend more than one regional! How is this even a question? Have you been getting enough sleep?”

[Me] “To the latter question, the answer is no ; to the former, here is why I think this question should be discussed:

Every additional regional event that a team attends this year costs that team $4,000 for the entry fee, as well as any travel and accommodation expenses. Let us suppose, for simplicity’s sake, that for any team attending an additional regional, the average cost of participating is an even $5,000.

Assuming, now, that had this $5,000 not been spent on participating in an additional regional, that the $5,000 would still be in the team treasury. (That is, the team would be able to spend it however it desired.)

Do you believe that this money could be better spent in the interests of achieving the goals of FIRST (to inspire in young people an interest in engineering and science) if the money was not spent on attending an additional regional event, but on engineering outreach instead?”

[Reader] “Hmmmm. I’ll have to think about this one and post a reply…”

[Me] “Here’s some (statistical) food for thought. Last year, 930 teams attended at least one regional event. Of those teams:

-507 teams went to ONE regional.
-285 teams went to TWO regionals.
-122 teams went to THREE regionals.
-16 teams went to FOUR regionals.

For those of you keeping score at home, this means that over 44% of teams attended more than one regional last year.”


-Andrew

P.S. A search of threads started in previous years concerning this subject has been conducted. The results of that search seemed to indicate that further discussion would be appropriate, particularly concerning the use of money spent on attending additional regionals.

[Steve W]

Andrew, if you are having a vote then edit your post and add a poll.

My answer is yes.

This subject is another subject that has been brought up multiple times and beaten to death, search around, theres plenty of civil discussion on it.


My opinion is what a team does with their money is their business

[Koko Ed]

A team should be allowed to attend as many regionals as they wish. FIRST isn't a perfect world but then again there is no such place in the mortal world so we make do with what we got.

[Allison K]

I'll bite...

Originally Posted by AJunx

Do you believe that this money could be better spent in the interests of achieving the goals of FIRST (to inspire in young people an interest in engineering and science) if the money was not spent on attending an additional regional event, but on engineering outreach instead?”

Does participating in a regional not count as acheiving the goals of FIRST? Are you telling me that you are not inspired by attending regional events?

Besides, I'm also a firm believer in teams spending money as they wish. They did all the work to raise it, afterall.

~Allison

[BaldwinNYRookie]

If I had the time and money I would attend competitions everyday. If your team has the money, and they really want to, then why not? Although, you could argue that in doing so they increase their chances of going to nationals, and if too many teams go to nationals it wouldn't work out very well.

[AJunx]

Originally Posted by D.J. Fluck (and many others)

My opinion is what a team does with their money is their business

If teams should be allowed to do whatever they please with their money, should FIRST eliminate all restrictions on how teams spend their money?
If FIRST were to take this route, changes might include:
• Eliminating the $3500 limit on parts used for robots.
• Eliminating the 25-pound limit on fabricated spare/replacement/upgrade parts that you can bring to each regional event (since these parts do not count towards the $3500 limit).
• Eliminating the 120-pound weight limit for robots.
• Lengthening the 6-week build season.

FIRST already has restrictions on how teams can spend their money.
The reason for these restrictions, in my opinion, is twofold. The first is obviously to keep the playing field reasonably level. No one wants there to be teams that win simply by outspending other teams (this isn’t Major League Baseball )
The second reason is that FIRST doesn’t want teams spending every penny they have solely on the robotics competition.

If FIRST did want teams to spend all of their funding on the robotics competition, then why is there a 120-pound weight limit for robots? Why is the build season only 6 weeks long? Why can’t teams build $15,000 robots to compete? (note, a $15,000 robot could be pretty darn inspiring)

The general consensus seems to be that teams have a “right” to spend their money however they want. If this were truly the case, why isn’t everyone denouncing rules like the $3500 limit?

The responses to this thread and the results of the poll have made it clear to me that restricting teams to 1 regional is an unwelcome idea. Ah well, it was worth a shot . However, I believe that a rule restricting teams to 2 regional events (and the championship event, if a team is eligible) would not be some socialist plot to take away teams’ freedom to spend money. Instead, it would serve to remind teams that FIRST is not purely a robotics competition, but a chance inspire others in the same way that you have been inspired.

Spend your money how you want, but if FIRST wanted teams to spend all of their money building robots and attending competitions, FIRST would have made the season 52 weeks long.

Side note: I’m curious to know if FIRST would be as large and as prosperous as it is today if older (lower numbered) teams hadn’t spent so much time and money to do engineering outreach in the name of FIRST.

-Andrew

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by AJunx

FIRST already has restrictions on how teams can spend their money. The reason for these restrictions, in my opinion, is twofold. The first is obviously to keep the playing field reasonably level. No one wants there to be teams that win simply by outspending other teams (this isn’t Major League Baseball )
The second reason is that FIRST doesn’t want teams spending every penny they have solely on the robotics competition.

If FIRST did want teams to spend all of their funding on the robotics competition, then why is there a 120-pound weight limit for robots? Why is the build season only 6 weeks long? Why can’t teams build $15,000 robots to compete? (note, a $15,000 robot could be pretty darn inspiring)

The general consensus seems to be that teams have a “right” to spend their money however they want. If this were truly the case, why isn’t everyone denouncing rules like the $3500 limit?

Uunnnhhh, perhaps there is a different reason. Yes, the $3500 limit was initiated to help level the playing field at a reasonable level (i.e. ensure that well-backed teams could not buy an unlimited amount of machining and out-sourced services while other teams struggled to purchase minimal supplies). But it was also done as a specific part of the design challenge. Installing a price cap mimicks real life (virtually every engineering project has a budget cap and spending limitations) and encourages innovation (if you can't just buy a solution to a certain problem, then you have to find a way to create it). Just like the weight, volume, power, and schedule limitations, it was done to constrain the problem to a manageable level. This is done to ensure that the robots can be completed, competed, and then put aside so we can can actually have a life outside of FIRST (yes, I know, this may seem like heresy to some, but it is true!). Attempting to define the spending habits beyond the cost of the robot was never a factor in FIRST's determination of the robot cost limits.

FIRST recognizes that a very high percentage of the teams in the program spend their entire budget just paying for the registration fees, travel costs to attend the events, and purchasing supplies to construct the robot. For most teams, there is NO money left over to fund elaborate outreach activities. The situation alredy exists where teams spend their entire budgets building the robots and competing. And contrary to the previous statements, FIRST is just fine with that. They have not made any attempt to tel lthe teams, explicitly or implictly, how to spend any excess funds they may have (and I would not want them to).

-dave

[Steve W]

Our team 1 time did the "drive train" method. It was 2003 and we won the WM Regional on Saturday. We were iced in and couldn't return till Sunday evening. Championships were on Thursday. We had very little time or resources but decided to take the drive team and a few mentors. The reason for not taking everyone was that at that time tickets were about $1000.00 each and we just couldn't raise the cash that fast.

Were our team members inspired. You bet. I was writing back to the team once or twice a day updating them. It was almost as if they were there. Since that time our team has improved over the last 2 years and I am really proud of them. Remember that a team does not always have to be present but they are always a team.

[AJunx]

Ms. K, and Mr. Lavery have both brought up a great point which I failed to think about while I was writing my last post. That is,

Originally Posted by dlavery

Installing a price cap mimicks real life (virtually every engineering project has a budget cap and spending limitations) and encourages innovation (if you can't just buy a solution to a certain problem, then you have to find a way to create it).

&

Originally Posted by Allison K

I would say that the $3,500 limit was put in place not to control the use of a team's funds, but to enhance the engineering experience.

At the time of my post, I certainly had not considered this aspect of the rules restricting how teams may spend their time and resources. It seemed quite reasonable to me that FIRST would make those limits both in an attempt to prevent overworking students/mentors (which I think Mr. Lavery referred to) and to prevent teams from focusing solely on the competition aspect of FIRST all year-round (which, Mr. Lavery has clearly pointed out, was simply my misconception).

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST recognizes that a very high percentage of the teams in the program spend their entire budget just paying for the registration fees, travel costs to attend the events, and purchasing supplies to construct the robot. For most teams, there is NO money left over to fund elaborate outreach activities…
And contrary to the previous statements, FIRST is just fine with that.

I shall happily agree that “a very high percentage of teams in the program spend their entire budget just paying for the registration fees, travel costs, etc.” But based on that statement alone, we know that some teams (a “very low percentage”, perhaps) have the budget capacity to do more than just attend a regional (and in some cases, nationals). The question then, is NOT:
--Should teams that can afford to attend only one or two regional events not attend those regionals?
But rather:
--Should teams that can afford to go to 3-4 regionals not attend those additional (third and fourth) regionals?

Actually, no, that is not the question at all. Nevermind, don’t answer that one.

Originally Posted by dlavery

And contrary to the previous statements, FIRST is just fine with that. They have not made any attempt to tel lthe teams, explicitly or implictly, how to spend any excess funds they may have (and I would not want them to).

Perhaps what I have been getting at this whole time is what Mr. Lavery is referring to here (although my opinion would appear to be quite different from Mr. Lavery's):

Although it has been a fairly long while since I last heard the legendary Mr. Dean Kamen speak about robotics, FIRST, engineering, and life (in fact, it was about one year ago); I thought I remembered him talking about “homework.” I could have sworn that in each of the past 4 years that I have attended the championship event, Mr. Kamen has given every team (and person) an assignment:

Spread the word. Help FIRST grow in any and every way you can.

Again, my memory of his exact message is suspect at best, but I do believe that Mr. Kamen has explicitly told us to do everything in our power (whether that includes funds or not) to inspire those who have not yet been inspired.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Mr. Kamen that was conducted by Kathy Kowalenko, posted in this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=Kamen+speech

This year, 23,000 high school students participated in the FIRST competition. Is FIRST meeting your expectations?

The event always exceeds my expectations, but I am saddened by the relatively low number of students participating. While everyone is astounded by our growth—we’re finally in a major national sports arena—I assumed that we would have gotten here in the first or second year. Our growth may be envied but it’s never fast enough for me.

When will you consider FIRST to be really successful?

Five years from today, I want every kid in every high school in the United States to know that their high school has a football team, a marching band, and a FIRST team—it’s a given, its part of the school’s culture.

I take from Mr. Kamen's statements that he explicitly, or implicitly, wants teams to do everything they can to help FIRST grow. I do realize that there are plenty of ways to help FIRST grow, including, of course, attending regional and championship events.

[slight change of topic] One thing that I just thought about is that everyone who spends their time thinking about FIRST in the middle of the night , posting on Chief Delphi, wearing neon pink or tie-dyed shirts, designing transmissions for the kit-robot, and/or coming up with thought-provoking YMTCs… we are all inspired. There is no question about that. I am inspired and it feels good.

That being said, there are plenty out there who have not seen the light of inspiration, with regard to science and engineering. It seems as if FIRST is entirely about using every means at your disposal to bring that light of inspiration to the uninspired.

The fact that FIRST has been able to inspire so many people and continue to do so, is, I believe, a testament to the dedication of those who are constantly using their resources to further increase the reach of FIRST. Thanks to every person who has dedicated themselves to promoting FIRST and science/engineering, and inspiring others to get involved (I'm one of those inspired others). Without you, there’d be no discussion about how best to inspire; indeed, there would be no torch of inspiration to pass on to the next generation of FIRST participants.

All of this aside, thanks to everyone for the thoughtful discussion.

-Andrew

P.S. Feel free to tell me if I am way off base about anything I mentioned in this post .

P.P.S. In the first post of this thread, I was referring to Team 384 (Sparky). I mistakenly typed in Team 364 (not that they aren't great too!).

[Shu Song]

Agreed. Our team would love to help start new teams in our area, but we just don't have the funds. Every year before kick off, we struggle to get secure funds to register for the first regional. At that time, no one is even thinking about a 2nd or 3rd regional, or even championships. This gives us no possible way to spend our funds on anything other than for our own team.

I realize that the real world operates like this, that every project hinges on amount of money involved. But if the true mission of FIRST is to get kids invovled in science and technology through the really fun competition, then shouldn't every team get the means to be able to spread the word of FIRST.

Every year I hear the homework assignment from Dean, and every year I wanted my team to try and start up a new team in a nearby high school, but year after year, we fall short on money and there is simply no time or money to to do anything.

That's my spiel.

[Sakura141]

My team attends 3 or 4 regionals every year, and each year we make attempts to get another team started at that highschool, they refuse to accept us though, they don't have any interest... and that saddens me that they don't

[dlavery]

Q:This year, 23,000 high school students participated in the FIRST competition. Is FIRST meeting your expectations?

The event always exceeds my expectations, but I am saddened by the relatively low number of students participating. While everyone is astounded by our growth—we’re finally in a major national sports arena—I assumed that we would have gotten here in the first or second year. Our growth may be envied but it’s never fast enough for me.

Q: When will you consider FIRST to be really successful?

Five years from today, I want every kid in every high school in the United States to know that their high school has a football team, a marching band, and a FIRST team—it’s a given, its part of the school’s culture.

As we start to dissect Dean's quote, there is one important factor that I want to make sure is remembered. On a regular basis, FIRST and Dean are quick to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.

In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST. And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?

-dave

[AJunx]

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.

I could not have said it better myself. I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by dlavery

In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly. This is precisely why I began this thread: to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition.

Originally Posted by dlavery

And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?

Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?

-Andrew

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by AJunx

Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?

But Andrew, I see an enormous difference between asking a group such as the FRC teams to help grow the FIRST program, and asking them to PAY for growing the FIRST program.

In the interests of playing the devil's advocate, I would pose the question at the opposite extreme: the FRC teams are helping FIRST grow their program. FIRST is the most direct beneficiary of those efforts, not the FRC teams. If that is the case, is it really appropriate for FIRST to ask the FRC teams to pay for the privilege of growing FIRST? Shouldn't it really be the other way around - for every new FRC (or VEX or FLL) team that a FRC team creates, should they be paid a reward by FIRST?

-dave