YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Bluabot finished the Magnolia Regional with a blue banner hanging from its end effector and a badly mangled arm. "We are going to Atlanta ... we are going to Atlanta ... WE ARE GOING TO ATLANTA!" was the chant coming from Bluateam's pit. Also coming from their pit was a whisper of, "What are we going to do about the arm?" Bluateam decided and proceeded to remove Bluabot's arm and load the 19 lb. injured arm on the bus. During the Fix-It-Window, Bluateam repaired Bluabot's arm and the, now 18 lb. arm, was better and stronger than ever. On Thursday of Championships, the armless Bluabot gladly welcomed the refurbished arm. Bluateam was so relieved, "Now we have a chance to win the Championships!"

Based on the 2005 Robot Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[Jack Jones]

This should be a no brainer:

Originally Posted by <R16>

During the “FIX-IT WINDOW” following the last Regional Event a team attends (i.e. prior to attending
the FIRST Championship): Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS
for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional
competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or
MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may
manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the
competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>).

So, unless I'm missing the point, there is no problem.

EDIT: OK, now I see that there may be an issue with what teams are allowed to do with "broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS" that they took home from the last regional. However, to argue that they must manufacture an upgraded arm rather than upgrading the old one would be just plain silly.

[Kyle]

It is legal, at least I think it is.

[DarkJedi613]

It seems legal, though...that makes me wonder why you'd be posting it.

[Edit: I also wonder why some people said illegal and haven't posted. Are we missing something obvious?]

[Scott team 48]

I think this is legal as long as they bring the arm back in individual pieces and re-assemble it on Thursday.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Scott team 48

I think this is legal as long as they bring the arm back in individual pieces and re-assemble it on Thursday.

That is what makes it illegal. You are allowed to manufacture parts but the rule states " to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may
manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the
competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>"

The reason you take it home is not to rebuild the arm but so that you can make proper parts that you can then bring to the event and put back on your robot.

[Don Wright]

Assuming the arm is considered a "mechanism" consisting of "parts", accodring to R15, you can make upgrade "parts" during the fix-it window after the last regional before the championship event. The upgraded "parts" when assembled into the arm "mechanism" made it lighter and stronger. Even though the second half of R15 doesn't explicitly say you can use the upgraded parts to fix the mechanism, I just think it doesn't because it was a cut and paste from the rule for the fix-it-window after any regional and they added the upgraded parts part before it for the championship event.

This is legal.

R15: During the “FIX-IT WINDOW” following the last Regional Event a team attends (i.e. prior to attending
the FIRST Championship): Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS
for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional
competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or
MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may
manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the
competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Bluateam decided and proceeded to remove Bluabot's arm and load the 19 lb. injured arm on the bus. During the Fix-It-Window, Bluateam repaired Bluabot's arm and the, now 18 lb. arm, was better and stronger than ever. On Thursday of Championships, the armless Bluabot gladly welcomed the refurbished arm. Bluateam was so relieved, "Now we have a chance to win the Championships!"[/i]

Based on the 2005 Robot Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Sneaking one in there aren't you? You say that the team is repairing the arm but it comes out stronger and better and one pound lighter. That is no longer a repair but a modification/redesign. The rule is pretty clear and has been discussed before. (Please note the repeating reference to "parts" in several places in the rule that follows.)

"Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>)."

As I read that, a functioning 18 pound redesigned/remanufactured arm cannot be brought to competition. Eighteen pounds of arm parts can be brought and assembled into an arm at the competition.
I personally will be walking around the pits, with a 25 pound balance scale and a blindfold to check anyone who brings in "parts". ( note the reference to "Blind Justice"?)

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

"Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>)."

As I read that, a functioning 18 pound redesigned/remanufactured arm cannot be brought to competition. Eighteen pounds of arm parts can be brought and assembled into an arm at the competition.
I personally will be walking around the pits, with a 25 pound balance scale and a blindfold to check anyone who brings in "parts". ( note the reference to "Blind Justice"?)

Seems to me like the arm would qualifiy as a "MECHANISM". I know that it's often dangerous to use common sense in a YMTC thread, but I'd say sure they can take it with them.

- they built the arm during the build and the FIW
- it weighs less than 25 pounds
- this year's rules have made no line between components and assemblies as far as bringing parts to the competition is concerned.

I have to say, I'm not sure why this is even a question...

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

"Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>)."

Yes, but what is a replacement part?

Originally Posted by 5.2

REPLACEMENT PARTS - A COMPONENT or MECHANISM constructed as a functional duplicate of an existing part of the robot, for the purpose of replacing a broken or defective part. REPLACEMENT PARTS may be either COTS or FABRICATED ITEMS. They must be functionally identical to the original part but may be modified to provide more robust performance of the function.

Example 1: A lever arm made of lexan on your robot breaks. You manufacture a REPLACEMENT PART made of aluminum plate, using the design drawings of the original. As the new part provides the same function as the broken part, the new part is a valid REPLACEMENT PART.

This is where I'd have to look at the arm myself. If it's the same arm, but a different material (which could very well change the weight), then it fits the definition of a replacement part. If they noticeably changed it and there's some new doo-dad on the end, then it's not a replacement part, and it's time for a do-over.

[mathking]

This is where I'd have to look at the arm myself. If it's the same arm, but a different material (which could very well change the weight), then it fits the definition of a replacement part. If they noticeably changed it and there's some new doo-dad on the end, then it's not a replacement part, and it's time for a do-over.

I think the rule pretty clearly says this is legal. Remember that a PART can be both a COMPONENT and a MECHANISM. The arm is a MECHANISM. It can be repaired or upgraded. The arm is still going to provide the same functionality, namely picking up and stacking tetras. It does not matter whether it has a new doo-dad at the end. Parts may be upgraded. As long as they have 25 lbs or less of total manufactured parts, they are legal. They don't have to disassemble their arm.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Since this is a hypothetical case, I guess it is OK to read into the description. I agree that an identical part made out of different material is OK under the component definitions in Sec 5.2...
"• Example 1: A lever arm made of lexan on your robot breaks. You manufacture a REPLACEMENT PART made of aluminum plate, using the design drawings of the original. As the new part provides the same function as the broken part, the new part is a valid REPLACEMENT PART."
I made the assumption that an arm that was suddenly lighter and stronger was a redesign not merely new material. Now granted, a team that makes a modified part at competition, no matter how awful can, in the fixit window, remake the part correctly in their shop. Theoretically, that team could manufacture an arm out of cardboard anytime before close of pits on Saturday, and remake the part out of titanium in the fixit window and still be legal, right? It is functionally identical to a part legally made during competition but is now an upgrade part since it is a new and better material. This is one of those rules that suffers from lack of knowledge of intent. What were the rules makers intending when this rule was written?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Since this is a hypothetical case, I guess it is OK to read into the description. I agree that an identical part made out of different material is OK under the component definitions in Sec 5.2...
"• Example 1: A lever arm made of lexan on your robot breaks. You manufacture a REPLACEMENT PART made of aluminum plate, using the design drawings of the original. As the new part provides the same function as the broken part, the new part is a valid REPLACEMENT PART."
I made the assumption that an arm that was suddenly lighter and stronger was a redesign not merely new material. Now granted, a team that makes a modified part at competition, no matter how awful can, in the fixit window, remake the part correctly in their shop. Theoretically, that team could manufacture an arm out of cardboard anytime before close of pits on Saturday, and remake the part out of titanium in the fixit window and still be legal, right? It is functionally identical to a part legally made during competition but is now an upgrade part since it is a new and better material. This is one of those rules that suffers from lack of knowledge of intent. What were the rules makers intending when this rule was written?

I think you'd have a rough time arguing that a cardboard arm is functionally equivalent to a titanium one.... The original part has to be functional in the first place. At any rate, I'm interested in the direction this YMTC goes, as it's not a hypothetical for our team. We're in pretty much this exact situation, as we had to bring our arm home to make some fixes in the FIW and made a slight upgrade in the process. I will be dismayed if we have to disassemble and downgrade to our original system.

[Warren Boudreau]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I think you'd have a rough time arguing that a cardboard arm is functionally equivalent to a titanium one.... The original part has to be functional in the first place. At any rate, I'm interested in the direction this YMTC goes, as it's not a hypothetical for our team. We're in pretty much this exact situation, as we had to bring our arm home to make some fixes in the FIW and made a slight upgrade in the process. I will be dismayed if we have to disassemble and downgrade to our original system.

I wouldn't think that you would have to disassemble and downgrade to the original system. Just disassemble and reassemble in the pits. The parts that go into the mechanism total up to less than 25 pounds. Just put it together on Thursday. Thus is my humble opinion.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

This is one of those rules that suffers from lack of knowledge of intent. What were the rules makers intending when this rule was written?

The rule makers were intending to start drinking heavily because they knew that no matter how hard they worked at it, for no matter how long, it would not be enough. They knew that the 400+ hours that each of them put in to the effort to develop the game and write the rules would never stand up to the approximately 4 million brain-hours of thought that would be applied to analyzing the rules, game and robot designs this year. They knew that Lucien would find some little hole that had not been filled to everyone's satisfaction, and a YMTC thread would pop up to discuss it. They knew that the stated desires from the teams to have simplified, short, concise rules were in direct conflict with the stated desires from the team to have complete, unambiguous, fully explanatory rules that leave no room for interpretation, and that there was no way to satisfy both. They knew that with the FIRST policy of creating a brand new game every year to challenge the teams that they would never be able to run through enough simulations of the game to completely understand how it was going to play out before it was released to the teams. They knew that the 400+ hours each was nowhere near enough to wring out all the nuances and subtleties and hidden "gotchas" that would be lurking about.

But they also knew that the nearly 1000 teams out there would take the problem (and the description of the problem - the rules) that they were given and run with it. And they knew the teams would come up with extremely creative ways to solve the problem, and play the game. And they knew that despite some occasional confusion over a rule that, in retrospect, might not be as clear as possible, or have an unintended consequence, that everyone would approach the whole affair with a positive attitude and genuine desire to make the most of the whole experience. And they knew that everyone recognized that the game is just that - a game. They knew the teams understood that at the end of the day what happened on the playing field during the competition season wasn't nearly as important as what happened back in the shop during the build season. They knew that the number of gracious, professional, make-your-grandmother-so-proud-she-will-puke moments of exemplary behavior by the teams would far outshine any minor mistakes or incidents of less-than-perfect decorum. And so far, they have been enormously grateful to see that the teams "get it" and are having fun and enjoying the season. Because that is what they intended.

-dave

p.s. Blueateam is legal. Take your less-than-25-pound upgraded part and go compete!