Who plays better defense, Midwest or Northeast?

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Do you stress Defense over Offense?
Is your motto..."Why score? There are three robots on the field that I call targets!"

Hmmmm...
Every time I read this it just gets me thinking.

Grady, how can you claim "defense" as a New England thing?
My "Top Three Defensive Robots" are ALL from the midwest... (it was shocking realization.)

In chronological order...

Technokat 1999 - Mean Treads, Mean Stiffarm, Puck Pwned
The mighty TKO struck terror into the hearts of FIRSTers everywhere. They could outpush almost anyone, and they certainly were able to hold their own on the puck. They're weapon of choice? A turreting, multi-jointed stiff arm. Were it not for a broken wire, 45 may have been the first team to win consecutive championships. (45 - 1999, They settled for the silver.)

Wildstang 2003 - The Ultimate Swerving Wedge
I saw robots bounce off of these guys left and right. In the year of tough drivetrains, this machine almost always stood it's ground. Though many of the "brick on wheels" robots from this year could be considered defensive, Stang certainly was a cut above. (111 - National Champion 2003)

Martian 2004 - "Who wants to play?"
Anyone who saw them knows what I'm talking about. They're play certainly carried them to the top. I won't ellaborate... but if you were there, you know. (494 - National Champion 2004)

I suppose good cases could be made for other robots... but these three just take the cake. My personal vision of hell involves 111-2003 with 45-1999's arm on top.

I guess those midwesterners do know a thing or two about defense...
I shudder to think what a defensive robot coming from Hammond would look like...

-JV

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by JVN

Hmmmm...
Every time I read this it just gets me thinking.

Grady, how can you claim "defense" as a New England thing?
My "Top Three Defensive Robots" are ALL from the midwest... (it was shocking realization.)

In chronological order...

Technokat 1999 - Mean Treads, Mean Stiffarm, Puck Pwned
The mighty TKO struck terror into the hearts of FIRSTers everywhere. They could outpush almost anyone, and they certainly were able to hold their own on the puck. They're weapon of choice? A turreting, multi-jointed stiff arm. Were it not for a broken wire, 45 may have been the first team to win consecutive championships. (45 - 1999, They settled for the silver.)

Wildstang 2003 - The Ultimate Swerving Wedge
I saw robots bounce off of these guys left and right. In the year of tough drivetrains, this machine almost always stood it's ground. Though many of the "brick on wheels" robots from this year could be considered defensive, Stang certainly was a cut above. (111 - National Champion 2003)

Martian 2004 - "Who wants to play?"
Anyone who saw them knows what I'm talking about. They're play certainly carried them to the top. I won't ellaborate... but if you were there, you know. (494 - National Champion 2004)

I suppose good cases could be made for other robots... but these three just take the cake. My personal vision of hell involves 111-2003 with 45-1999's arm on top.

I guess those midwesterners do know a thing or two about defense...
I shudder to think what a defensive robot coming from Hammond would look like...

-JV

Very easy answer to all of these John.

1. I have always considered the Technokats a Northeast team trapped in the midwest. Baker and crew have always been defensive minded, and they had to be growing up in a time where defense was extremely important (pre-alliance era). In other words...the Technokats are defensive because they are one of the original teams.

2. Was Stack Attack not king of the hill in disguise? Stack Attack isn't an example of Wildstang building a defensive robot for the sake of being defensive...its a case of building a defensive robot because it was flat out how you won the game.

3. You got me there... exception to the rule.


I urge you to find time to watch both regionals and compare. If the New England Regional and Granite State regional, as well as Midatlantic aren't more defensive oriented to the naked eye, then apparently I've missed something in the last 12 years. I would go as far to say for every defensive robot you name in the midwest, I could probably name 3 in New England...flat out. Fact of the matter is you will find that Midwest competitions are extremely passive...it is score score score...and I'm willing to admit...it has been very successful for them. When you take a midwest team out of its element, and stick them in the northeast...toast...(excluding 1998, where defense was more of a detriment than anything else).

The only question left...how will the NERDS change that?

-Andy Grady

NERD...We will be heard

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I urge you to find time to watch both regionals and compare. If the New England Regional and Granite State regional, as well as Midatlantic aren't more defensive oriented to the naked eye, then apparently I've missed something in the last 12 years. I would go as far to say for every defensive robot you name in the midwest, I could probably name 3 in New England...flat out. Fact of the matter is you will find that Midwest competitions are extremely passive...it is score score score...and I'm willing to admit...it has been very successful for them. When you take a midwest team out of its element, and stick them in the northeast...toast...(excluding 1998, where defense was more of a detriment than anything else).

Andy,

Here are some scoring stats from 2004 that I collected.

Granite State -- Average Score: 55.7
UTC -- Average Score: 72.2
Northeast Average: 63.9


Great Lakes -- Average Score: 49.6
Detroit -- Average Score: 52.0
Midwest -- Average Score: 65.5
W. Mich -- Average Score: 72.7
Midwest Average: 59.5

I'm not going to try and draw some large scale conclusions from a limited set of data, which clearly has some flaws. But, if the Northeast was so much more defensively oriented as you say, you would think there would be a much greater scoring disparity.

Maybe you'd care to educate us on some of the great Northeast defensive robots of the alliance era. For me, only two teams really come to mind, 121 and 61.

[Ian Curtis]

190 of 2004. Difficult to be become more defensive than that. (Hang in autonomous, block cap, make goal smaller, prevent hanging.)

Also 190 of 2005. Due to a general lack of a working arm at BAE and a very funtime drive train they played defense that worked very well even though they were not capable of pushing.

And to be more on topic. Will the true meaning of NERD be released during FIRST jeopardy?

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Andy,

Here are some scoring stats from 2004 that I collected.

Granite State -- Average Score: 55.7
UTC -- Average Score: 72.2
Northeast Average: 63.9


Great Lakes -- Average Score: 49.6
Detroit -- Average Score: 52.0
Midwest -- Average Score: 65.5
W. Mich -- Average Score: 72.7
Midwest Average: 59.5

I'm not going to try and draw some large scale conclusions from a limited set of data, which clearly has some flaws. But, if the Northeast was so much more defensively oriented as you say, you would think there would be a much greater scoring disparity.

Maybe you'd care to educate us on some of the great Northeast defensive robots of the alliance era. For me, only two teams really come to mind, 121 and 61.

Well Karthik, I shall answer your challenge....

First of all, average scoring doesn't necessarily mean much...here is why...
In a competition where defense was very abundant, the UTC Regional and Granite State regional had its fair shair of lobsided matches. Usually one team would play severe defense while the other two would score. When you couple this strategy with a robot that doesn't move on the field...you get a 2 on 1 advantage to one of the alliances. This results in high scores on one side, and not so much on the other. When the teams are more equal, and the scores are closer...the average score will go down. I think if you look at the scores you will find when the teams are good, in many cases the score is closer to 45-40. When you have good teams ganging up on weaker ones, you get your 70-80 point rounds.

As for the defensive giants...bad move challenging me on this one Karthik

deep breath...

Ok we'll start back in 1995 with what might be the most defensive robot to ever play the game. Gael Force (Team 126) out of Clinton Mass entered the national finals with a robot by the name of Big Bopper. During the finals, GF would wait for a team to get up on the ramp and start scoring...they would then climb the ramp, bowl over the scoring robot, and spend the rest of the round scoring with its opponent on its side.

Next we will go to 1997, Rhode Warriors and Hyper (currently team 121 and 69). The inventors of the most defensive and contraversial device of its time...the tipping device. Doesn't get more defensive than that. So much that FIRST had to change the rules to prevent it from happening again.

1999, team 176 Aces High...yes I realized they teamed up with the Juggernauts...another one of the defensive exceptions to the rule in the midwest...Aces was strong on the puck, and could hold of anyone with its arm...you would later see them utilize that same technology in Stack Attack.

2000, Defense isn't all hitting. What could be the most dangerous robot of all time, team 131 Chaos had a ball stealer that litterally could only be stopped by its destruction in the national finals. The team that was highly responsible for that destruction...team 157, Aztechs out of Malborough Mass.

2003, 126 and 121...wedges of death. 176 aces high strong on top once again.

2004, team 61, so powerful it was rediculous. Team 237, guarding the bar with its shimmy device. Team 88 who made a living out of hooking on the bar, and charging at anyone who came close to the top of the platform. Team 131 who would sit on top of the platform and wait for anyone who challenged them. Team 501, who was so fast and dangerous that all they had to do was cause havoc and get on the bar. 190, who was the only team to attempt to steal a ball from one goal and move it to another...all while blocking the bar...the ultimate defensive robot. Team 69...see team 501.

2005...

Ok, lets put it this way...you can take that whole team list from both the BAE and UTC regional...you can watch the video, and you can see for yourself...almost every team is defensive.

Team 42 is a defensive powerhouse every year. 69 always knows how to hit when necessary. 88 is one of the most defensive minded teams in the game today. 121...self explanitory. 126, might not do the hitting themselves this year, but believe me, every strategy they used had a defensive robot. 131 puts the hits on when they have to, as well as 134 penbroke. 157 never has an issue pulling out the slams when need be. EVERY UTC TEAM IN THE BOOK. WPI used its multidirectional drive to ONLY PLAY DEFENSE! 501 was so defensively agressive that they got knocked out of the tourney because of it. How about Leominster 549...they can dish it. As well as Montey Tech.

Wait! We aren't done!

At UTC...

Once again your usual...69, 126, 157, All UTC Teams, 195...one of the top 3 defensive robots in the region. Possibly top 10 in the world. 236 uses speed for offense, but in a second will turn to defense to protect all of its points. 716 also extremely defensive. 1071 made a carreer out of stealing tetras from other robots (see the finals for proof). 1099 was strong...1100 would sacrifice their robot to make sure they blocked for you!

I'm sorry Karthik buddy, you are barking up the wrong tree if you want to challenge me on this one. The only thing I can suggest, come see it for yourself. FIRST in New England is a whole different ball game, and i guarentee anyone who has been here from out of town will back me up.

-Andy Grady

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I'm sorry Karthik buddy, you are barking up the wrong tree if you want to challenge me on this one. The only thing I can suggest, come see it for yourself. FIRST in New England is a whole different ball game, and i guarentee anyone who has been here from out of town will back me up.

So let's stray from specifics for minute. I was at the Granite State regional in 2004, and I was not blown away by defense. Aside from Team 69's performance in match two of the finals, when they pushed 175 across the field, I didn't get the impression that I was watching a defensive region. I was definitely more wowed during my trips to the Midwest in the late 90's and early 2000's.

I'm not trying to say that the Northeast doesn't play hard defense, I'm just saying I've yet to see anything concrete that suggest the Northeast is far ahead of the Midwest in terms of defense. I mean, for every 121, 88 and 69 in the Northeast, I can bring up a 494, 68 or 48 from the Midwest. My best argument regarding the defensive strength of the Midwest has to be the 2002 game. The offensive way to play that game was to pickup balls, while the defensive way to play that game was to control goals. Almost all the best goal grabbers in that game were from the Midwest. Take a look at 71, 469, and 68.

I guess the only way to settle this is for a few Midwest powerhouses to make the trip east, and a few northeast big dogs to head west.

[Cory]

Andy,

I'm not sure your point about 2005 is relevant. It's fairly clear that playing defense was the wrong strategy in this game. If you aren't scoring, the other side is. Even if you can harass another team some, they're going to score some points, and you'll probably get some penalties.

So being as defense was not the way to play, it seems a little silly that one would be proud of having the "best" (I'll challenge you that there was no such thing as a good defensive robot in 2005. Check out Einstein. See any bots playing D? Nope. All scoring.) defensive robots in such a game.

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Karthik

So let's stray from specifics for minute. I was at the Granite State regional in 2004, and I was not blown away by defense. Aside from Team 69's performance in match two of the finals, when they pushed 175 across the field, I didn't get the impression that I was watching a defensive region. I was definitely more wowed during my trips to the Midwest in the late 90's and early 2000's.

I'm not trying to say that the Northeast doesn't play hard defense, I'm just saying I've yet to see anything concrete that suggest the Northeast is far ahead of the Midwest in terms of defense. I mean, for every 121, 88 and 69 in the Northeast, I can bring up a 494, 68 or 48 from the Midwest. My best argument regarding the defensive strength of the Midwest has to be the 2002 game. The offensive way to play that game was to pickup balls, while the defensive way to play that game was to control goals. Almost all the best goal grabbers in that game were from the Midwest. Take a look at 71, 469, and 68.

I guess the only way to settle this is for a few Midwest powerhouses to make the trip east, and a few northeast big dogs to head west.

I'm loving the return of good ol' fashioned debate back on these forums. Karthik, you bring alot to the table, but being as stubborn as I am, you will never sell me on this. I admit I have never physically been to a midwest regional (I am hoping to change this soon), but I have viewed many of them as we used to send scouts out to take video. We would spend lots of time picking apart teams from the midwest, trying to figure out strengths and weaknesses, and though there were flashes of brilliance in defensive play at times, I could never see a solid arguement for even comparing the defensive play of the midwest to that you would find in New England or New Jersey. I do not deny that the number of defensive teams in the midwest are growing, but I feel that if you really watch what New England has offered up in the past, you would see a major difference.

You point out 2002 as an example of the midwest brilliance in defense. As good as Beatty was in grabbing three goals and taking a beating while holding strong...I dont feel that it compares to the downright crazy defensive showing we would see at Battlecry that same year. First you have team 121...a very strong offensive robot that year, who was so smart when we played them in one round, that when the round was close, and they realized that we were caught in their end zone, they boxed us in there...such an amazing defensive move that ended up winning the match for them and sending them into the finals. The other example..was team 190. Beatty could hold 3 goals and walk its way to the middle of the field...but with Gompei...you litterally had to rip that robot in half to even come close to prying those goals away. I dont think a soul who was there would ever forget the sight of the team 190 robot, being ripped apart, but still holding strong to those two goals...now that is defense.

I guess, no matter how you cut it, we could all go back and forth to no end on who is more defensive. I guess as it was stated before, there is only one way to find out...time for some teams to travel. Boy do I miss the days of Rumble at the Rock...when these questions could be answered.

Also, I find it interesting that the majority of the arguements on behalf of the midwest have come from those who are not even from the region! I'm very curious to see how members of those midwest teams feel on this issue?

Great discussion everyone, keep it up.
-Andy Grady

[Collin Fultz]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

I admit I have never physically been to a midwest regional (I am hoping to change this soon),

Originally Posted by Shameless Plug

IRI July 22-23...as Midwest Regional as it gets.

On a more debate centered note:

The tourney at Boilermaker was magical. Pretty much everybody tried to figure out a way to stop The Beast. 234, 16, and 393 gave defense a shot and took the Beatty alliance to three matches and nearly won. Then 135, 876, and 93 took to playing defense again in the finals. Apple Corps played killer D one match (I think the one they won) and took the number 1 seed alliance (kudos to 71, 1024, and 269) to three matches again.

Watching the finals on Einstein, something was seriously lacking. And it took me a while to figure out what it was. Some good-ol'-fashioned-MIDWEST-style defense.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

On a more debate centered note:

Watching the finals on Einstein, something was seriously lacking. And it took me a while to figure out what it was. Some good-ol'-fashioned-MIDWEST-style defense.

Or simply any kind of defense at all, Midwestern flavor or otherwise, although those who chose to be "offensively defensive" by crossing the field and busting opponent's home rows certainly provided a couple entertaining moments. I'm pretty sure those same aggressive risk takers ended up winning the whole thing, too.


AMEN, BROTHER.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

I don't think either region is more defensive minded than the other. What I think this boils down to, is that both regions have very good, experience teams. No matter what kind of robot those teams build, they can use a defensive maneuver when needed.

[nobrakes8]

As far as defense I don't think there is a more defensive region at least here in New England or the Midwest. Its too hard to play defense every match with the caliber teams both regions produce especially in triple play, however I believe this season New England is home to the best defensive team in the world. (anybody who has seen 1071 in Beantown or UTC almost has to agree).. UTC this year was decided by defense, Team 1071 stole 2 tetras before they could be scored by team 230 and then prevented another 2 tetras from being scored. At beantown team 1071 again stole a few tetras off other robots although wasnt as successful as in UTC.

[Paul Copioli]

Maybe the ThunderChickens and some friends should come to visit the Northeast in 2006. Which regional do you recommend?

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Maybe the ThunderChickens and some friends should come to visit the Northeast in 2006. Which regional do you recommend?

Thats what I like to hear

Granite State Regional...and leave your bumpers at home.

[Matt Torrisi]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Thats what I like to hear

Granite State Regional...and leave your bumpers at home.

I'm from 350, THE defensive robot in the Granite State Regional. No bragging our robot was the defence for the winning alliance of 2005. I have found that defensive robots in the Northeast are only that way because of a failed arm. NO robots were designed to have defence as a primary objective. Unfortunately I do not know all the teams of the Midwest and therefore can not answer the question in the fullest.

-Matt Torrisi-