Ball Recirculation Question

[Nuts4FIRST]

Can balls from both the center and corner goals really be returned to the field by the human players?

My current interpretation is that only balls scored in the center goal can be touched by the human players and returned to the field ONLY IF you interpret the words “chute” and “ball return” to be synonymous. Balls in the corner goals are kept there until the end of the match, there is no "exit chute" that returns the balls to the human player.

Look carefully at the semantics of these rules.

Take a look at rule G05. It states...

<G05> “In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute”... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER."

The only goal that has some thing that resembles a chute is the center goal. The corner goals have no “chute” that returns the ball to the human player.

If you look at rule 3.4.2 and 3.4.3 the word “chute” is not used. However one could conceive that the words “ball return” and “pipe” imply a “chute” mechanism.

3.4.2 Ball Returns
A Ball Return is located at the lower edge of each Center Goal, to guide scored balls safely down to the player stations for retrieval by the Human Players. The Ball Return is a section of 9 inch diameter corrugated plastic pipe through which the balls descend from an opening in the bottom of the Center Goal.

3.4.3 Ball Corrals
A Ball Corral is located at the ends of the Alliance Station Wall to restrain any balls that enter through the Corner Goals. The Ball Corral covers a four-by-four foot area. The side walls of the Ball Corral are three feet tall and constructed of square aluminum tube and polycarbonate. The back wall of the Ball Corral is of similar construction, except it is only 20 inches tall to permit easy retrieval of balls from the interior of the
corral.

Yes, the ball corrals at the corners do have an opening at the back, but no “chute”. May the HP reach into this opening? Where is that stated?

I can appreciate the intention of the game design but the rules are not explicitly written to match one’s interpretation. Perhaps the intention of the game design was to only allow balls from the center goal to be returned to the field. Thus, making it attractive to have a strategy that shoots balls; creating an exciting game from the audience’s perspective.

[Greg Needel]

The intent is that balls scored in any goal can be returned to the field. Don't worry so much about the wording of the rules but the intent of the rules.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Wow. FIRST lawyerism to make the game harder to play and make it harder to score?

[dhitchco]

Side goals:
As soon as one of your balls passes through either of the side "mouse hole" goals, it gets scored one (1) point for your alliance, but that ball (now in the corral box) become property of the opposing alliance and ANY of their 12 people can reach into the corral(s) and use the ball(s) to relaod their robots and/or the three human players can use those balls to manually shoot over the wall into either side goal at YOUR end of the court. The rest of their alliance can ONLY touch/pass-around balls, not shoot over the wall.

Center Goal:
As soon as one of your balls passes down the chute for THEIR center goal, you get credit for three (3) points, but they then can retrieve the ball and do the same thing with it as paragraph #1 above.

The animation clearly shows left and right-hand human players reaching down into the corral(s) to re-feed robots and/or shoot over the wall.

SO.....Shoot your ammo wisely!

[KenWittlief]

every year the rules demonstrate just how difficult technical writing really is.

Its one thing for a group to come up with the rules, so they know exactly what is allowed

its much more difficult to write those rules down, so that everyone who reads them will clearly understand the intent and restrictions.

For example, if you took the rule in the 1st post of this thread literally, then only balls returned to the field by the opposing alliance can be used to score points (thats what it says).

If taken literally that would mean each ball must be tracked by the refs, and you can only score points with balls returned by your opponent, not with balls you took from your side of the field!

(obviously, thats not what they meant to say, but there it is! )

<G05> “In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute”... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER."

[Ashley Christine]

Basically, as long as the balls are within the alliance station, and the human player doesnt leave the alliance station, any balls within the station are up for grabs, meaning the corner goals, the garbage can, and on the floor.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

For example, if you took the rule in the 1st post of this thread literally, then only balls returned to the field by the opposing alliance can be used to score points (thats what it says).

It does not read that way at all, Ken. It says that a ball is scored when it passes down the chute and cannot be scored again until it is placed back in play by the opposing alliance's human player. It speaks singularly of one ball, not of all balls. It is true that any single ball that is scored must be returned to play by the opposing alliance before it may be scored again.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

It does not read that way at all, Ken. It says that a ball is scored when it passes down the chute and cannot be scored again until it is placed back in play by the opposing alliance's human player. It speaks singularly of one ball, not of all balls. It is true that any single ball that is scored must be returned to play by the opposing alliance before it may be scored again.

yes, so any balls returned to the field by MY alliance cannot be scored by my team, because my alliance is not the 'opposing alliance'.

I know thats not what they mean - Im only trying to point out that you have to take all the information FIRST provides (the kickoff demonstration of the game, the rules video anime...) and understand what was intended

and to send the lawyers home.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

yes, so any balls returned to the field by MY alliance cannot be scored by my team, because my alliance is not the 'opposing alliance'.

I know thats not what they mean...

Nor is it what they say, Ken.

I don't know why what you're reading isn't what is written, but that's what you're doing. <G05> doesn't say anything about who can score a ball that's been entered onto the field. It simply -- and clearly -- says that after your alliance scores a ball, that ball cannot be scored again until the opposing alliance returns it to play.

[KenWittlief]

really?! ok

<G05> “In order for a ball (what ball, mine or theirs? doenst say)

to score, (score for who?, us or them, it doesnt say)

it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute” (which goal? it doesnt say)

... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER." (now they say "the opposing allinance" - not either alliance - not my alliance").

the words you added to the rule "after your alliance scores a ball" are not in the rule :^)

again, Im not disagreeing with the intent of the rule. A while back I had to have some very simple testing instructions translated to japanese. To make sure they were correctly translated I had the japanese translated back into english.

one step was: Turn power off. Turn power on. (ie, cycle the power)

what I got back was: Revolution gives power (sounds somewhat subversive!)

I tried rephrasing the english and went through the process again, and got back: Energy hi, energy far.

[Lil' Lavery]

<G05> In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute. A ball that bounces out of the
goal is not scored. Once a ball is scored for a particular ALLIANCE , it cannot score again until it is
entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER.

Ken, you lose

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

really?! ok

<G05> “In order for a ball (what ball, mine or theirs? doenst say)

to score, (score for who?, us or them, it doesnt say)

it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute” (which goal? it doesnt say)

... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER." (now they say "the opposing allinance" - not either alliance - not my alliance").

the words you added to the rule "after your alliance scores a ball" are not in the rule :^)

I chose those words to indicate the case that you are claiming the rules do not allow. The exact words in the rule are more general, but include what I said in addition to what you claim is the only one permitted:

Originally Posted by <G05>

In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute. A ball that bounces out of the goal is not scored. Once a ball is scored for a particular ALLIANCE, it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER.

It's right there in black (well, red, anyway) and white. The "particular ALLIANCE" can be either you or them, and the "opposing ALLIANCE" is thus either them or you, respectively. If your alliance gets the points, the other alliance must put it back in play before it can be scored again. If the other alliance gets the points, your alliance must put it back in play before it can be scored again.

[KenWittlief]

oh, so thats what was in the "..." part of the first post in this thread?

well thats a horse of a different color!

[Windwarrior]

<

G05> In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute. A ball that bounces out of the
goal is not scored. Once a ball is scored for a particular ALLIANCE, it cannot score again until it is
entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER.

Why would a opposing alliance member want to throw ball back on the field? Based on this rule, it would behove the opposing alliance NOT tho put the balls back into play. By not putting the balls back in play, they can keep the score down, way down!!

Likewise, they could throw the balls to the backcourt, allowing the backbot time to scoop them up and having a distinct advantage in the next period.

Another type of defensive stratedgy.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Windwarrior

<

Why would a opposing alliance member want to throw ball back on the field? Based on this rule, it would behove the opposing alliance NOT tho put the balls back into play. By not putting the balls back in play, they can keep the score down, way down!!

Likewise, they could throw the balls to the backcourt, allowing the backbot time to scoop them up and having a distinct advantage in the next period.

Another type of defensive stratedgy.

Why would they want to throw the ball back into play? To score points for their alliance.

(Think about it: I'm the red alliance. You just scored a ball in your corner goal, which is right in front of me. I want to do my darndest to either break even and score it in my corner goal, or come out ahead and nail a three. To do that, I have to reintroduce that ball into play.)