Scoring For Your Opponents

[Karthik]

With the way that ranking points have been calculated since the 2000 season, it's always been more advantageous to allow your opponents to score more points. This a very neat part of FIRST. I have always been a fan of this rule, until this past weekend.

During matches where we had a big lead, our drivers were instructed to leave let our opponents get on their ramp, and play a minimal amount of defence. This was in hopes of gaining more ranking points. In certain matches, our opponents were not scoring many points, so we scored for them. As many as 30 points in one match. The result was a closer match, and more ranking points for both teams. Everyone should be happy? Right? Well, not exactly

I spoke with one of the teams who we played against and scored for. They were very insulted by us scoring for them, and said it was us rubbing salt in their wounds. I'd never considered this before. Our team discussed it that night, and we could see where our opponents were coming from. That being said, as long as the loser's score is part of the ranking system, we will continue to try maximize it.

I'm curious as to how others feel about this? Would you be insulted if your opponent scored for you during a blow out?

[Beth Sweet]

Like you said Karthik, as long as the losers score is part of your QP, that's fair strategy. That is part of your strategy. I'm sorry if they're insulted, but that is part of the game. If FIRST is going to design a game where their points count for you then it is your responsibility to score for them. That is part of trying to be successful.

[jgannon]

I've toyed with this idea in my head before. While I understand the reasoning behind giving teams their opponents' score, I think that scoring for the other team to increase your RP is in a way like showing off. I know that that's most certainly not the intent, but there is the implicit message that "we're beating you by so much that we can afford to score for you". To apply it to sports, it's almost like scoring a touchdown to put yourself ahead by 35, doing a touchdown dance, pulling a Sharpie out of your sock to sign the football, whatever. Then, on top of that, the referees give you another point as a reward for your celebration. I've been on both sides of lopsided FIRST matches enough times to think that I probably wouldn't take it all that hard, because it's part of the game. However, I'm quite sympathetic to those who see the implicit message as being not graciously professional.

[AmyPrib]

Simply put, it's a good strategy.

I would hope that a team doesn't expect me to abandon my strategy of scoring extra ranking points so that their feelings aren't hurt. That may sound harsh, but the point is, this has absolutely nothing to do with being flashy or rubbing salt in their wounds or showing off. It's their choice to see it that way. Anyone that knows the game, ranking system, and strategy should be able to see that it's a legit way to put yourself higher in the rankings and shouldn't be looked down upon. If I were the losing team, I would almost expect the opponent to be doing that. I'd just be annoyed at myself for not being able to out-score them, and would try my darndest to do better next time.

Teams need to do what they can to help themselves place well - if their desire is to place high and win... No, it's not all about winning, but pretty much everyone out there would like to win the event... There's usually a large group of top teams who all only lost 1 match, so they use your ranking score to place you. Scoring a few points for your opponent might just give you the advantage, but it can also help the losing team as well.

I hope people don't claim this to be un-GP. It's been discussed before, and I don't think it's un-GP.. it's strategy that one team may be able to use that another can't or chooses not to... but so be it.... do what you can to win your next match... all you can do is your best.

Good luck to everyone in the coming weeks!

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I'm curious as to how others feel about this? Would you be insulted if your opponent scored for you during a blow out?

Perhaps the expression of insult was simply a coverup for the true frustration a team had over their lunches just being handed to them by a superior opponent?

As long as FIRST bases RP's on losing alliance scores, scoring for the opposition during a sure win is simply smart play. Those who take offence (Canadian spelling) to this strategy do not understand the nature of the contest, nor do they understand that they themselves are receiving a RP boost through their opponents' actions.

[sanddrag]

There is no shame in playing the best match you can play. You are one of the few robots that can score so well that you can score for your opponents too. That is something to be proud of. And anyway, you are helping their rank too, so there is no harm done if you ask me.

[irishninja]

I can see why the opposing alliance would find it offensive and think it was rubbing salt in their wounds. It is like saying we're so good, not only are we going to win, I'm so sure i'm going to win, I'll help score for you, just to prove my goodness. At the same time it is a good strategy to finish the game, which is what I think comes out on top. If the other team was in your place the tables would be turned and they wouldn't care. However it is important to leave it on the field and not do it off. That would definaltey go against all gracious professionalism.

[KenWittlief]

as long as your robot is not doing any backwards over its head shots (hey, Im not even looking!) , or bouncing the ball between its wheels

or a spinning through the air back hook slam dunk, then no.. I dont think you are showing off :^)

If you pick up a dead robot and set it on its own ramp with your robot, just dont pat it on the head as you turn towords your own ramp!

(BTW - you can always plead "our driver was confused!")

[Jon K.]

Last season RAGE used it as a legit strategy. While I can see it as insulting to some, the thing they have to remember is that it is helping thier team and alliance as well becuase of the ranking points.

[George A.]

At NJ team 25 did it quite often, due to the fact that they had to be loaded by HPs...so they would push balls through their opponents goal so they could get loaded up...basically sacrificing 1 point for the opprotunity to get 3. I'd take that trade any day of the week.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.

At NJ team 25 did it quite often, due to the fact that they had to be loaded by HPs...so they would push balls through their opponents goal so they could get loaded up...basically sacrificing 1 point for the opprotunity to get 3. I'd take that trade any day of the week.

Yeah we did that numerous times. We also scored in their center goal, and had a whole alliance go on their ramp.
As long as there is no rule against it...i am completely fine with any team doing this. Heck if we were getting pulverized in a match, and the other team started scoring on our own goals, no way would i get in their way of scoring or be insulted. As said before, its more of an embarassment with how your own team performs, not that the other team is doing something wrong.
Besides, the other team could always miscalculate and put you over for the win...
In the match that we put up 137 points, we actually scored about 15 points for the other alliance.

[Andrew Blair]

Surprisingly, I've never seen this strategy used on our own alliance before (Lucky?), though we have used it many times. I can see both sides of the argument, though it is beneficial to both teams. I may put a loss in, but with enough ranking points, I will seat higher than others in my win category. Its a very effective qualifying strategy.

*A story about scoring too many points for your opponents: At championships, 2003, 306 decided to get greedy. They scored up both sides as high as possible, intending to pull a win by a couple of points. However, by some cruel hand of fate, somebody miscounted, and though we scored the highest match in our championship division that match, we lost, and somehow by that, we stopped moving on, even with a robot that could've made it all the way. So just remember, play whatever strategy you want, but don't get greedy!

[Starke]

this system of scoring is very interesting to FIRST. Besides seeing teams letting their opponents score more points, I have also witnessed losing alliances give up points. For example, at the Finger Lakes Regional there were a couple of times that losing alliance robots jumped off the ramp at the last second to not give the winning alliance more points.

[Lil' Lavery]

First off, 116 has a long and storied history of high scoring matching. In just the last 2 years (and only counting our first competition this year) we have had 4 "high scoring" matches, won 2, lost 2.
2005 Chesepeake: 120-0, 0 side
2006 VCU: 86-34, 34 side
2006 VCU: 99-24, 99 side
2006 VCU: 76-18? (cant remember)-76 side

I wish that the opponents had scored some points for us, and I highly regret not scoring some for them.

The thought that opponents are scoring for you to "rub salt in your wounds" is looking at it the wrong way. It's not a matter of insulting pride, it's a matter of placement (for both you and them), and in truth, gracious professionalism. Consider for a moment the alternatives. If this thread doesn't exist about The Triplets scoring for the opponents, instead it would be a thread complaining about why the triplets beat them 300-10. "Why not simply stop at 100 and gather up all the balls so you can win decently, and have no chance at losing at all because you are denying us any points? Instead you went and tormented our loss even further by running the score up!"
Let's look at the previously mentioned sports analogies. Sure, they don't score for the opponent, but niether do they run up the score, and when they do, they are critisized (especially in college athletics). And if scoring for the opponent somehow benefitted them, I'm sure they would score for them.
I beleive this rule exists for a few reasons. To eliminate, or at least reduce, blowout matches; and to promote cooperation without reducing competition (thus the W/L being the first ranking determination) between opponents.
It is not only beneficial to raise your RP by scoring for the opponent, it is in favor of GP. You're not blowing them out, which IMHO is just as insulting as scoring for them -if not more- and you're helping raise their rank as well.
As mentioned many times during kickoff events, the message FIRST is trying to convey by using this rule is that "Your opponent today, may be your ally tomorrow". Therefore, you should aid them whenever possible (though obv not hurting yourself).

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Starke340

this system of scoring is very interesting to FIRST. Besides seeing teams letting their opponents score more points, I have also witnessed losing alliances give up points. For example, at the Finger Lakes Regional there were a couple of times that losing alliance robots jumped off the ramp at the last second to not give the winning alliance more points.

Thats not very nice. It could also hurt you even though you lose it will also lower your average points. Just think you tied for eight in wins but are ninth because of your QP's and then you do not get picked.