Team Forum

[Emily Jenkins]

HELP!! I need to know what time the Michigan Forum at EMU is tomorrow morning! I can't find it anywhere! Please help me out if you know. Thank you so much!

[David Kelly]

i don't know what time it is, but i hope that you are not planning to attend. because lori sent out an email stating that absolutely NO HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS ARE ALLOWED!! i don't mean to sound so crude but thats the scoop.

i'm sure someone else knows the time though.

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Emily Jenkins
HELP!! I need to know what time the Michigan Forum at EMU is tomorrow morning! I can't find it anywhere! Please help me out if you know. Thank you so much!

Forum starts at 9am, FIRST staff arriving approximately 8:30am...to elaborate a bit more on what David said, make sure you're REGISTERED before you show up...if you haven't yet, you're pretty much out of luck I'm afraid to say...

[Emily Jenkins]

Thanks Nate for the info. Luckily, our rep was pre-registered we just didn't know when it started so thank you for your help. Have a great day!

[Jessica Boucher]

By the way.......does anyone have any news from all 3 forums? It'd be spiffy to know.

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Jessica Boucher
By the way.......does anyone have any news from all 3 forums? It'd be spiffy to know.

Going down the agenda, here's what I can remember

AM - Engineering Topics
Topic 1: Game

• All discussed games at 2 game design meetings thus far return to true competition, 2v2 thus far but no guarantees
• Various topics brought up throughout day emphasized the point for an easier game to explain, understand, etc.

Topic 2: Tournament Structure

• General discussion about the format of a weekend
• Discussion about possible "pre-inspection," either by own team or by another team, prior to event or before FIRST inspection at event
• Idea was brought up to perhaps use 4 x 5min practice rounds rather than 2 x 10min, to allow for more time to fix discovered problems

Topic 3: How many teams build entire fields?

• Survey Taken: almost all teams build or have access to entire field
• Size of field agreed to be good, reusable border makes it easier to build a field
• Suggested that BOM for field released without cut lengths prior to kickoff to allow for pre-purchase/order of components - Would allow for complete field build on kickoff day

Topic 4: Kit of Parts

• List passed out for teams to check off actual used parts from kit
• Hardware bag discussed - was it really needed? Suggested that maybe not for veterans, but good starting point for rookies and idea building
• Wish List: other sensors, ...

Topic 5: The Manual

• Are two copies really needed per team?
• General consensus - 1 hard copy, and 1 CD-ROM, perhaps with other forms as well on CD (yearbook page, BOM spreadsheet, etc)

Topic 6: Small Parts & Innovation First

• Why Small Parts only? Response from FIRST: SPI is MAJOR sponsor of FIRST..i.e. event support, as well as fairness issue
• Using stock from previous years discussed - consensus was as long as accounted for at current prices, should be allowed - OK from B. Hammond (FIRST)
• Innovation First: great work, again!
• Possibly reuse previous year controllers(reduce cost?) - No, hardware internal upgrades made between seasons prevents this (2000 and 2001 controllers were not internally the same)

PM Session - Admin Topics
Topic 1: Shipping/Drayage

• Clarification: Teams are responsible for shipping TO DRAYAGE and pickup FROM SITE on SATURDAY - holdover to monday for pickup by shipper for team requires last-minute dealing w/drayage site
• Taking robots home - D/N expect forklift to load into back of pickup - incident of damage in 2001
• Request for FIRST: include shipping pickup address in manual for teams to pre-arrange outbound shipping prior to event
• Yellow Freight: billing issues, discount not applied, etc. - FIRST will address

Topic 2: Online Registration

• Registration open and close dates given - mid-september to early december
• Will require registration at one regional before allows registration for Disney
• BE SURE TO verify e-mail address entered - 40-50 invalid addresses bounce back every time a mass e-mail is sent from FIRST to teams

Topic 3: Mentoring and Diversity Talking Points
-anyone have good notes on this one?
Topic 4: Program Books

• How are program books used?
• Consensus: primarily among adults for "spreading the word," fundraising, etc.
• Not much student interest in books
• Perhaps leave 1 in team pit, have pickup spot(pit admin) for those who want more
• At max for pages in current format - perhaps go back to custom books for each event?

Topic 5: Kick-off

• Remote Kickoff: likely to happen, kits+NASA TV field
• Late decision on game(Dec 15 - yes, that's serious) makes shipping fields to remote sites prohibitive
• How many would still send a representative to Manchester if a local remote site was available (2-3)

Topic 6: 2001 Regional Re-cap

• Great Lakes: split pit headaches, good team party(lots to do), too big
• General: inappropriate behavior reported during "human tunnel" at awards - no more tunnel allowed

Topic 7: Team Party

• General Consensus: need more to do than just DJ, music, and food
• FIRST Comment: teams still need to provide chaperones at party

Topic 8: 2001 National Championship Re-cap

• Divisions: great for reducing general chaos, but feeling about not having equal chance to play all teams was mixed
• Site: max size reached @ Disney? Caused MUCH discussion re. alternate sites, one division at each park, moving to different part of Disney property, etc.
• Get other packages from Disney? FIRST has little control over, Disney presents packages, "which one?"
• Reservations issues expressed: if trying to reserve as FIRST team, told full, but if just reserving a block of same size, told space available at same site
• Issue Expressed: Can Disney get list of Travel Coordinators used when dealing with The Meeting Co. for regionals and only deal with those people?

Anyone who has more to add on any of this, feel free...I'm just going from memory here...

[David Kelly]

thanks for the info Nate!

[Jessica Boucher]

Wowwwww, thanks, Nate. That'll spurn tons of new threads.

Anything from CA or Manch?

[Andy Baker]

Nate covered most of the stuff we discussed. Here are my notes:

Over 80 people showed up as Bob Hammond (director of FIRST Robotics Competition), Hut Snow (Director of Engineering), and Lori Ragas (Team Coordinator) conducted the meeting. Bob did most of the talking. It was a very good meeting. This is the third year I've attended one of these meetings, and usually we don't cover all that is needed. But, we did at this meeting. What was discussed can be divided up into two parts:
Information told to us from FIRST
Stuff that the teams told FIRST


Here are the things FIRST told us:
1. There will be more "head to head" competition next year
2. 2002 competition dates will be out before Labor Day
3. Registration will be from 9/17 - 12/7
4. Kickoff will be 1/5/02, and will most likely be held at various locations
5. Ship date will be about the same (I'm guessing 2/19)
6. Regionals - new sites MAY be: Cleveland, Seattle, Toronto
7. Regionals will take place over 5 weekends (4 weekends in 2000 and 2001)
8. Nationals will probably take place later in April (date not set yet)
9. Yearbook page is critical (only 35% of teams completed it)
10. Most kit parts will be available on-line as CAD parts (MD Cybercad... it was avail. this year, but most teams didn't know it)
11. Manuals at Kickoff - 1 hard copy and 1 CD - possibly
12. No more special "lock/store/ship" deals for teams... everyone must use Drayage. A better deal with Yellow Freight will be made in 2002.
13. Chaperones must be at parties to monitor students
14. Teams need more diversity. The people/companies/organizations who are giving money to FIRST want teams to be more diverse (more women and minorities). Linking with professional organizations, celebrities may help
15. (not sure about this yet) Teams may not be able to register for Nationals without going to a Regional. Only 7 teams attended only Nationals last year.



Here are the things we discussed, as FIRST asked questions and wrote down our comments:
GAME
1. Make the game simpler or easier to understand (we pounded on this one), this included making it media friendly to compete with Battlebots.
2. Competition is needed (although they promised it, we pounded it also)
3. Field blueprints were terrible and need to be dramatically better
4. Difficult to deal with the Small Parts' gear/sprocket/belt/chain restrictions in 2001, since they were unrestricted in 2000. FIRST's comments: we want you to use SPI, as they are a great supporter of FIRST. Sure, their catolog list prices are high, but we get 50% off up to $1200 and the first $200 free. All of the parts and service offered at competitions are free. We said that it's fair, but it's costly for everyone. We also should be able to use SPI parts from past years.
5. Inspections on Thursday need to go faster. Veteran teams may be called on to do "peer inspections" and to help other teams more.
6. The pre-match negotiations in a very short amount of time was not good
...6a. Some people wanted no adult coaches
...6b. Some people wanted no student coaches
...6c. Give us more time to plan the match (all day is good)
...6d. 4 team alliances were too much... too dependent on other teams
...6e. Telling other teams that their robot was not as good as yours was a downright mean part of the game, but it had to take place

ORGANIZATIONAL
7. SharingFIRST and/or a discussion board may be incorporated into the FIRST website
8. Inter-team mentoring needs to increase.
9. Team leaders need a way to contact each other through FIRST by letting FIRST give out their email addresses (optional).

COMPETITION EVENTS
10. Regionals (and Nationals) - must have at least 7 qualifying matches
11. Regionals - let us bring food into the arenas (may be a moot point)
12. Regionals - more things to do at team party
13. Regionals - no more "tunnels" during awards... inappropriate behavior was taking place. We all took this very seriously.
14. Nationals - Size is getting to be a problem and Disney wants to cap attendance (words from FIRST)
Our comments:
...14a. Disney said they would "build it if we come" let's make them
...14b. Break up Nationals to two weekends
...14c. Limit the number to Regional winners and "first come, first served"
...14d. Break up National to two locations
.....west coast/east coast
.....Epcot/MGM etc.
...14e. Move away from Disney
...14f. Don't ever move away from Disney
...14g. More seating needed in indoor fields
...14h. Have the final matches during the awards
...14i. Don't drag out awards so much
...14j. Hold "performance events", like drag racing, tractor pull etc. off-line of the competition
...14k. Faxing hotel needs really was bad... many teams not accepted
...14l. Don't let teams bring soooo many people. Some teams bring cheerleaders, bands, etc. (local teams?)
...14m. Divisions were good
...14n. Division award ceremony was OK
...14o. Give us more time to pick teams for the finals
...14p. Teams should have to qualify for Nationals
...14q. All teams should be able to go to Nationals if they wish
(as you can see, there was alot of opposing opinions on this... FIRST has alot of work to do, dealing with the size of Nationals... expect some changes)


Regards,
Andy Baker

ps... keep in mind that these are my notes, and not my opinions, nor the opinions of the TechnoKats. Some of the points are blunt. If you want more explaination, I'm sure that Nate, myself or any others who attended can also elaborate.

[Kyle Fenton]

I am thinking that they are putting .pfd Adobe files on the CD's so they can make munch cheaper copies. They had put .PFD files on their website before, so most likely it will just be a big .pfd document with tabs at the left.

I have heard that there is most likely head to head competition. I am very glad to hear that.

They are saying they there is going to be 15-16 regionals. Possibly one in Canada. And a bigger Gap between Regionals and Nationals. This is cool so you don't have to get back to school and make up a bunch of work just to do it all over it again a week later.

All the rest has been said. Looks like a major improvement.

[Carolyn Duncan]

The idea of a regional comp in Canada is really great! First is really becoming international, this should help with publicity and funding. Kudos to the people who have pushed for the comp.

[ColleenShaver]

Going over some of the Nate posted stuff from the NH forum--

Topic 1: Game

We got a 'don't worry, we will be going back to the competition-format'.

Although there seemed to be a consensus on a viewer-friendly game and scoring system, teams were reluctant to be rid of the multipliers of the game (often the confusing part).

Time multipliers were discussed. Some teams spent much time and effort building robots to play 4-5mins of an entire competition. At least give them the full 2 minute match back.

Other suggestions included a definitive way to tell right at the end of the match who won, by some sort of flag raising up or a more capture the flag-like game.

Topic 2: Tournament Structure

Pre-inspection was also discussed. Seemed slightly divided. Feel other teams would be pickier than actual FIRST inspectors.

Practice was discussed and deemed important at regionals but possibly less essential at Nationals. Suggested that a practice field be built at Epcot for teams to sign up for if they wanted time and have matches start Thursday to maximize match playing time.

Also suggested that much of the morning is wasted uncrating, removing crates, and just trying to plow through the mass and chaos. Possibly let 4 team members in Wednesday night to uncrate their robots and get the crates out of the way. Inspection could even begin then. That way teams can easily use all of Thursday morning on work and repairs.

Topic 3: How many teams build entire fields?

It seemed not that many of the group built entire fields, due to cost or space issues or both. On top of that, better blue prints are needed.

Keep the same parts from year to year and don't get any bigger with the field.

Make the parts more portable and lighter (i.e. bridge was overengineered and a truck could drive over it) for easier movability.

Allow teams on the field @ competitions either before practice, at lunch break, or after the matches are done Thursday to make critical measurements on the field that effect their robot performance so they don't have to interrupt practices.

Topic 4: Kit of Parts

More speed controllers!!

Suggested to have a rookie kit and a veteren kit: for example, veteran kit wouldn't have any battery chargers because most teams have many and it would reduce cost to FIRST (and heck, weight in shipping those puppies back home)

Suggested that FIRST possible take out really expensive parts that teams don't tend to use and reduce the cost of kit by $X and then allow teams to purchase more with that $X of parts that are actually useful to them.

Topic 5: The Manual

Suggested either 1 hardcopy, 1 CD or simply the essential game rules and scholarship information handed out at kickoff and the rest on CD. Mentoring materials and other tools to be put on CD.

Topic 6: Small Parts & Innovation First

Discussed was using parts that were stocked or if teams used their 50% off gift certificates and bought things now they know they would need, and then simply buy them again come kickoff time to be within the rules but save themselves the waiting time on shipping.

Suggested that rookies could be mailed a Small Parts catalog upon registration and be informed by mentors and such the advantage to stocking up on chain, etc.

Questioned whether it is ok to go the local store, buy the same exact part and simply account for the Small Parts price on your BOM. Generally agreed that it would be good, saving at the minimum the huge shipping costs to teams. Teams agreed. No definitive word on the manner yet (not that I remember at least)

IFI- good work. Can we get another language besides PBASIC though? It is good for new programmers, but the experienced would rather another language (C, Java, Assembly). Unanimous by group that they would like the team to be allowed the choice of language for writing their programs if possible.

Admin
Topic 1: Shipping/Drayage

As long as teams can be allowed to make their own shipping arrangements to save $$$, all is ok. Yellow frieght waaay too expensive even with the 53% off.

Have some sort of security to ensure the careful and proper delivery of the crates. Every year crates come back damaged from where they were clearly dropped. Damage to robots inside is inevitable. One team had their batteries break and acid leak everywhere due to a dropped crate in Florida. Lots of time and money in these robots and some parts just are replacable in the time-span of one competition or that machine shop. Also, this year, crates w/ robots were left out in the rain- no good!

Problem with Freeman Decorating 'slipping in' hidden costs to many teams.

Topic 2: Online Registration -- good stuff.

Topic 3: Mentoring -- Let's do some better advertising for these mentoring tools of FIRST. Some don't know they exist. Link up at the top of www.usfirst.org to "Teaching Tools"

Topic 4: Program Books -- Teams get more than they need. Possibly take out the straight list of teams in the back and keep just profiles. Reduce the space for judges.

Topic 5: Kick-off

In NH is good. With remote kickoffs, people would still send reps but they like for the rest of the team to learn the game and see it at least on the TV right away.

Topic 6: 2001 Regional Re-cap

Hartford: It's moving to another undisclosed Connecticut local. The team party= no good.

Long Island: Great local, great comp, great party, awesome food. Close atmosphere.. party was right at the field venue and was very cool. Attitude of teams was great.

NJ: Needs a bigger venue. Close atmosphere is nice but kids on teams shouldn't get stuck outside and not let into the competition.

PA: Suggestions to move it back to Temple for size reasons. Friendliness of the volunteers needs to be higher priority.


Topic 7: Team Party -- Team party suggestions: The way they did in it NH in '98. Incorporated awards ceremony into team party. Buffet style but w/ sit down tables for everyone. Give out awards while eating with dancing and music in the next room. It was nice, bring it back.

Topic 8 - Nationals/Disney

Divisions: a wonder to the scouting process. Typically you would really only play among the same smaller pool of teams anyway. Liked that it was random... allowed you to work with new teams not just from your region.

Disney is the main draw for many students/teams but it's the biggest hassle. Easier to do own reservations than through the FIRST packages. Saves time, money, and guarantees your choice of hotels. FIRST requests that we be 'graciously professional' and respect the partnership with Disney and that they are doing all they can. As well, teams who want to stay longer/shorter than packages offer wind up w/ problems.

Shouldn't make it elimination to get into the Nationals: all should be allowed to go.

Suggested: There is still alot of parking lot left.

Suggested: Two nationals... East Coast 'National' and West Coast
'National' (Disneyworld & Disneyland???). FIRST then foots the bill for winners of each to come to a 'final match' at a designated place and time.


The forum had a lot of good ideas come out of it. Many which I probably forgot to write but I just wanted to give the NH feedback on the comments brought from the MI forum. Other issues can be written about when I'm less tired.

[Carolyn Duncan]

Do you recall anything about the VA regional, Colleen? I noticed many other regionals but not VA. I had some ideas about it but I'd like to know what other people thought too.

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Kyle Fenton
I am thinking that they are putting .pfd Adobe files on the CD's so they can make munch cheaper copies.

Isn't that supposed to be "PDF" files. Unless I am mistaken, a PFD is a life-jacket (Personal Flotation Device).

Jeff

[ColleenShaver]

There was only one team in attendance that had attended the Virginia Regional. I believe the gentleman said his team had a good time and thought it was a good regional/location/etc.

Basically, Lynn asked if there was anyone who attended each regional and we only talked about those which teams had attended (of course, the more folks who attended, the more there was to say )

That's all I know!