About being overweight and exceeding your size requirements – the need for reinspecti

[Godzilla!]

Background:
At both GLR & Detroit this year all robots plus the top 4 standby robots that were to compete in the eliminations were re-inspected for both weight and size.

I was approached by the Head Robot inspector and asked to come to the inspection station Saturday during lunch. Upon arriving, I found that all teams except one had passed inspection. The team that failed exceeded both the size and weight requirements.

This team was given a “Conditional Pass” late Friday morning so they could compete. They did not meet the requirements for size but told the inspectors they would make the required adjustments before competing and based on this were given an inspection sticker.

They did meet the weight requirements Friday morning time.

During the Saturday inspection it was determined that not only did the team not make the required adjustment for size but they actually increased their size. When the robot (without bumpers) was weighed it was found to have exceeded the weight requirements by 13 lbs!

I instructed the inspector to pull the inspection sticker and to tell the team they would not be able to compete unless they got a new inspection sticker.

After a short time period the team reweighed the robot and miraculously now met the weight requirements! As to what they removed I had no idea – could have been weights or the shooter mechanism.

It did take the team a number of tries before they met the size requirements.

When the team finally passed the inspection I asked for the team captain and found he was also the 8’th seed Alliance captain.

During our discussion I informed him that he was to inform the Alliance partners of the teams actions and if they made it to the finals they were to inform all competitors of the inspection results.

I also believe that the additional weight gave the team an illegal performance enhancement and could have been a direct reason why they were the 8’th seed thereby tainting all the teams wins. Given this, I suggested to him that the team should remove themselves from the afternoon competition and replace their robot with a more qualified standby robot.

Results:

The team competed in the eliminations and was eliminated in the first round.

To the best of my knowledge, the inspection results were not passed to the other teams

There was no remorse shown for the inspection results. I believe that the only concern shown by the team was that they got caught.


Conclusion:
Gracious Professionalism?
Concerns?
Rules? There are no rules allowing for retroactive disqualification if a team has been found to violate the robot requirements and I did not do so. There are no rules other than a valid inspection sticker to have kept the team out of the elimination rounds.

What Would You Do?

I would be interested to know opinions of the actions taken by this team and was this appropriately handled.

Sorry for the placement of this thread but I had tried to place this in a moderated area and I guess it didn’t work as I haven’t seen it and I believe that this is an important topic.

Ron Webb
Head Ref
GLR & Detroit

[Pavan Dave]

Weight does give an advantage and I would hope that team would have fessed up. I also think that them being eliminated in the first round proves that weight can make you or break you in this years game*.

Thank you for telling everybody about this problem as this is a very important topic and it is not fair to the teams that play by the rules.

Pavan


*to a certain extent.

[Jason Kixmiller]

Definitely a hard topic...

I believe that one of the toughest challenges of the FIRST competition is the size/weight requirements. I believe that a rule is a rule and if a team doesn't follow this rule, they shouldn't be allowed to compete at all. It certainly isn't a happy scenario - the team worked hard to create their robot, etc. - but providing leniency toward one team creates an unfair advantage and sidesteps a challenge of the game. I don't think this team should have played past practice rounds until the inspection was fully passed.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The obvious difficulty with making a retroactive rule is that you don't know when the weight showed up. They could've added it after their last match. If you're dealing with a team that's already abusing the honor system, they're not going to tell you they added the weight after their first match.

At any rate, FIRST has to work on the honor system. There's little to prevent teams from pulling any number of similar stunts to get a little more performance by skirting the rules. Obviously they should be ashamed of themselves, but I'm unsure what we can do about things if they're not. Possibly we'll have to start being mean and naming names so other teams will know about them. And, of course, bring a heck of a lot more peer pressure into play to reinforce their moral fiber.

[EStokely]

Wow.

Nice light topic for the afternoon.

I guess we learn from this and try to make the appropriate changes for next year. There was a time that a team could anonymously "turn in" another team for re inspection. In an effort to prevent this very problem.

But as you stated there are no mechanisms to deal with the scenario you presented. And I would guess most of us would feel that there should be a way for this type of behavior to be addressed. All you could do was make suggestions. Obviously GP was not being considered by the team as presented here.

I guess I am most concerned with a robot being allowed to compete that didn't pass inspection. Some of this problem could have been addressed if they had not been allowed on the field until they initially met inspection.

So in an effort to turn this into a positive allow me to make a few suggestions for next year, or even future matches this year.
1) No robot competes unless it is within the rules.
2) Weigh before each match, or immediately after each match, at the field (I know logistically this could be a problem but of the size/weight concerns here weight is the bigger problem I suspect)
3) Do random inspections during Friday and sat
4) Have published penalties for breaking the rules. A robot found to be over weight should lose the matches they competed in, even if its retroactive (IMHO) As to which matches I think a case could be made for any "Suspected matches" i.e. any matches between weigh ins.
Harsh? yep. but it is the teams responsibility to keep their weight in spec. If you alter the machine you need to reweigh. That's pretty straight forward.

If these problems are not addressed then what are rules in the future worth? Are they guidelines or are they rules?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by EStokely

4) Have published penalties for breaking the rules. A robot found to be over weight should lose the matches they competed in, even if its retroactive (IMHO) As to which matches I think a case could be made for any "Suspected matches" i.e. any matches between weigh ins.
Harsh? yep. but it is the teams responsibility to keep their weight in spec. If you alter the machine you need to reweigh. That's pretty straight forward.

This is the problem you run in to. If you just say "suspected matches" and leave it for someone to determine, then you're putting a lot of gray area in there. If you're saying since they were last weighed... Well a team is likely to be weighed once at inspection and maybe once at your random inspection. And if you're an ounce over weight and lose half of your matches cause someone left a wrench on the robot.... Well that's not fun.

As for reweighing after every robot change... That'd keep inspection hopping the entire weekend. Not to mention teams missing matches cause they're in line to get re-weighed after a simple change.

Plus, this ignores other re-inspection issues like swapping 40 amp breakers for 50, or any of a hundred other nefarious changes an ill-intentioned team can pull.

Basically, I think any hard and fast rules about this are much more likely to horribly punish teams that mean well and accidentally end up a pound over after a weekend of wrestling with a robot. They're not likely to deter the theoretical (and likely few) teams that intetionally go out there and break the rules for an advantage.

[jacob07]

I cant believe that a team would want to cheat in this lovely sport. This sport is all about following the rules. Thats why I love it so much. Its not about winning or about being the best. Its about having a good time. Thats what my team thirves in and its hard for me to see why a team would feel it necessary to make it more then that. It confuses me but not everyone in this world playsl by the rules as they showed all of us. Thanks Ron for sharing

[BRosser314]

At GLR this year a certain team in the finals called out the whole other alliance and made them all recheck there speeds or there shooter. All of these teams passed and went on to win the regional, could some of these decisions that people make be guided towards being a bad sport. This sportt is all about being a gracious proffesional and having good sportsmanship.

I remember back to my freshmen year, 3 years ago the game was Stack Attack. We had a lartge sweeper arm that we could use to knock down the whole stack. When we would take our sweeper off for finals matches we would add weight but always make sure we didnt go over because we ha pre-made weights that just had to be bolt on. Do you think this is wrong? We have yet done it since then but would teams be offended by this or look down on teams that did do this?

At the end of saturday at GLR we made some modifications to our robot making sure we cut off pieces if we added pieces. Without weighing our robot we went to Midwest and weighed in we were almost 13 pounds overweight. Without thinking we left the battery on our bot. When we took it off we were back down to that nice and light 119.6lbs. Could that team that was 13lbs overweight in all weigh-ins, have weighed ther bot with battery. If so it was an honest mistake to a veteran team that was thinking back to a few years ago.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by BRosser314

Could that team that was 13lbs overweight in all weigh-ins, have weighed ther bot with battery. If so it was an honest mistake to a veteran team that was thinking back to a few years ago.

It could be.

Personally, I'm wondering just how bad it'd be if teams had to weigh in before each match. Just drop your robot on the scale, make weight, and pick it back up to go onto the field. Probably would take a second scale, though.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Billfred

It could be.

Personally, I'm wondering just how bad it'd be if teams had to weigh in before each match. Just drop your robot on the scale, make weight, and pick it back up to go onto the field. Probably would take a second scale, though.

FWIW: I really question the calibration of the competition scales sometimes. Last year we weighed in during initial inspection at 19.4 so we added a short piece of 1" x 1/16" wall aluminum box tube just to add a little more protection for our RC. It brought our total weight to 119.8. We never added or subtracted anything else from our robot the entire competition. When we re-weighed in before eliminations the robot was 118.7. Somehow we magically lost over 1 lb. I just can't see how that could have been anything other than the calibration of the scale. The scale was moved from the original inspection area to the queuing area before the start of eliminations. Scales of this precision require extremely good calibration and don't like to be moved. I have also noticed that, believe it or not, how the robot is placed on a scale changes the reading. We have a fairly good scale here at work used by our shipping department. It is probably calibrated once or twice a year. Last year we weighed our robot on it and the weight varied as much as 5 lbs depending on how the robot was placed on the scale.

[eugenebrooks]

Flat bed scales are notorious for being sensitive to the weight
distribution of the object placed on them. We use a hanging
scale when we weigh our robot, or parts, in the shop. One
gets a much more consistent reading that way.

Eugene

Originally Posted by DeepWater

FWIW: I really question the calibration of the competition scales sometimes. Last year we weighed in during initial inspection at 19.4 so we added a short piece of 1" x 1/16" wall aluminum box tube just to add a little more protection for our RC. It brought our total weight to 119.8. We never added or subtracted anything else from our robot the entire competition. When we re-weighed in before eliminations the robot was 118.7. Somehow we magically lost over 1 lb. I just can't see how that could have been anything other than the calibration of the scale. The scale was moved from the original inspection area to the queuing area before the start of eliminations. Scales of this precision require extremely good calibration and don't like to be moved. I have also noticed that, believe it or not, how the robot is placed on a scale changes the reading. We have a fairly good scale here at work used by our shipping department. It is probably calibrated once or twice a year. Last year we weighed our robot on it and the weight varied as much as 5 lbs depending on how the robot was placed on the scale.

[Dillon Compton]

Originally Posted by Billfred

It could be.

Personally, I'm wondering just how bad it'd be if teams had to weigh in before each match. Just drop your robot on the scale, make weight, and pick it back up to go onto the field. Probably would take a second scale, though.

Considering the rather startling disparity in calibration and sensitivity of scales from regional to regional, this worries me; the addition of adding a second weight in pre match will have 2 potential effects:

1.) The scales match perfectly, the re-weight accomplishes its objective- match resets/changeovers are delayed (although, perhaps NOT if re-weigh was at the last stage of qeue?), and everyone gets to play less matches. We get less for our reg. fees, and everyone goes home a little less satisfied. The spirit of first has taken a hit, and GP is 'enforced'.

2.) the scales dont match, and robots that were inspected at exactly 120lbs go over- robots are unfairly DQed, and arguments ensue; matches are delayed MORE than in case 1, and everyone gets to play even fewer matches. Teams DQed/not allowed to play thanks to a field-scale ruling are dissatisfied, since they already passed inspection once, and 6 hard weeks of work are thrown into the team's collective face, based on what, one would assume, is a minor weight difference between scales.


I DONT see this as viable, and I have a plethora of questions, suggestions, and clarifications that I will be contacting FIRST with if it becomes apparent that pre-match re-weighs will be standard next year.

Sure, the above team was heinously out of line- I've heard other stories about teams putting empty batteries on the robot for weigh in (when batteries were included in bot weight), adding extra motors post weigh in (even, apparently, motors BEYOND what was supplied in KoP), etc...

This means a few things: One. We, as a community, need to encourage EVERYONE to embrace GP- we know it is not all about winning, so let us make sure that everyone knows this. Additionally, take it upon yourselves to bring potential violations first to the team's attention, in a non-aggressive manner ("Hey, did you know that we did not get drill motors in the KoP this year? We've got a spare window motor if you want to swap it out...", etc...), and then to the head inspectors attention ("Hey, team XXXX had a 2004 drill motor on their 'bot- I reminded them it wasnt legal this year and offered them a replacement motor that is legal this year- just wanted to give you the heads up"). Additionally, I would support announcements being made regarding dishonest and illegal behavior prior to the start of selection; I would hope that none of us would choose a robot that had been running an extra motor or 15lbs overweight during alliance pairings, just because they were highly seeded.

This sort of thing is something that we can solve at a community level by doing the best we can do within the rules, and proving to everyone else that it is about the fun, the experience, and the inspiration and enjoyment that all of us students get out of FIRST- not about winning the matches by any means possible.

"Be the change you wish to see"
-Mahatma Ghandi

Lets do this, folks- this is not the place to flame, or to raise questions about other team's dishonest behavior- this is not the arena in which we need to take out our rage or dissapointment- let us just remember to do what we can, and encourage everyone to remember what FIRST strives to be.

To the author of this thread; thank you for bringing this issue to the community's attention, and I would suggest that in the future, if this occurs, you make it known to other teams at the regional, or simply refuse inspection of the robot- no exceptions should be made. Had I been in your situation, I'd have refused it at the "conditional pass" step, methinks; they are rules. We need to follow them, however dissapointing it is, or however bad you feel, telling that robot to loose the 13lbs before comp.


Just my $.02

Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[meaubry]

Where do I start - hmmm, lets see -
Inspectors have a very difficult job, and it is compounded by time constraints associated with the way the competition is managed. Thursday is suppose to be practice day and teams are suppose to get through the inspection process before the competition seeding matches begin on Friday, or they are not suppose to be able to participate.
Teams are expected to meeting ALL of the build rules - that is very, very difficult to do for some teams before "the bot goes in the box".
Regardless of the time constraints, the getting ready and making the robot function, I think the expectation is that ALL of the rules are suppose to be met by all participants. I think that there were more than just weight and size concerns
Editorial side note - 1 oz over weight, 1/8 inch outside of the box, ball launchers not covered properly, sharp edges on frames that rip bumper covers from one end to the other. Are all violations looked at with a different measuring stick?? We shouldn't close a blind eye to just one or two - why have the rules if they are subject to opinions instead of consistent validation techniques?

Okay - so now the reality / humanity of the situation comes into play.
Team XX is in trouble right outta the crate - the robots isn't completed yet or its 30 lbs over weight. The team is working off a shoestring budget, have few students and mentors, and they are lucky to even just scrap up enough to show up. They bring very limited tools and even less material. They knew some of the rules but not all of them - they need help.

The inspectors are busy looking around to see "who is in trouble??" - word is quietly passed.
Teams showing GP offer much help and assistance - some ask for help some are asked if they need help.
Thursday practice day passes and some teams don't get a passing grade. They are on the the Friday "hot sheet" - some get conditional passes and are told to fix this or that before competing.
Inspectors run around trying to make sure those with conditional or have not passed inspection DO NOT compete in matches.

Possible process improvements that could be considered -
1) Thursday after lunch or a designated time 2:30pm? - NON-Passed robots list provided to Head Ref. - No practice allowed for robots that have not passed inspection
2) Friday morning - Hot sheet listing all non-passed robots provided to Head Ref. or designee and its used to assure teams that have not passed cannot participate
3) Qualify points for non-passed robots that miss their match should be 0 regardless if they were on the winning alliance and their record should not include wins, losses or ties - if they do not participate in the match.
4) All conditional passes should be approved prior to participation by all teams participating at the event - Conditional approved robot list shared at Drivers meeting and vote by show of hands - thus eliminating any discussion of preferential treatment - lets put GP to a real test.

[Nuttyman54]

wow this is a hot thread

I for one, never understood why teams were allowed to play (practicing is OK) before fully passing inspection, and I think the option to conditionally pass should be excersized only in very odd circumstances.
We were 10 lbs overweight and about an 1/8 of an inch over sized (washers sticking out) on Friday, and we missed the rest of our practice matches to get it legal (we succeeded). Our team makes it a point to get inspected by or shortly after lunch so that we have time to make modifications if necessary and, to my knowledge, have never needed to get conditionally passed.

[Don Wright]

This is unfortunate. However, before we all get worked up in a tizzy, let's take a deep breath and relax...

Rules in FIRST are like laws. They are just design constraints for everyone build their robot to. The honest teams will design and build their robot to meet these requirements just like honest people live by the law. Sure, they might make some mistakes and their shooter might be shooting too fast, or their robot is a little too big or heavy, but they make corrections to follow the rules to make it a fair competition.

I would have to say that most of the FIRST teams fall into this category.

Then there are those that don't follow the rules. Some see how far they can bend them...others flat out break them. Unfortunately, if that is what they want to do, there isn't much we can do. You don't think I can't engineer my expansion with two pin locations...one that is legal, and then one that is extended two or three inches more to give me just a little advantage? Or something I can add and take off quick for added weight...so I get inspected and then throw this extra spike/motor/wire harness on real quick? Or a knob on my control board to control shooter speed so if I get tested, I just turn it down, pass, then crank it back up?

Cheaters are going to cheat. And by implimenting more and more "checks" it is just going to hurt the 90+% (I hope) teams out there that don't cheat, but now have to jump through hoops for three days proving over and over again that they do follow the rules.

Unfortunately, our GP sometimes stops us from maybe doing the only thing we can do to stop this from happening. Calling more teams out if you see them doing something you think is funny (not funny ha ha). But, then again, you don't want to be "that team" that is calling everyone a cheater.

Maybe this team did weigh with the battery. Maybe some of the teams I saw at GLR that shot from the starting position and hit the banners behind the field 3/4 of the way up had a bug in their program and their shooter was malfunctioning. I hope so.

I for one would like to believe that...