Teams missing matches, something must be done

[sanddrag]

This year's game is the most well designed so far. Yet I believe there is still one fatal flaw. Why should those who have their robots in working order and on th field for a match be penalized by those who don't? In nearly every one of the first seven qualifying matches in SoCal there was at least one robot missing from the field (at one point, I heard there were 4 robots missing from the field). We had to play a 3vs2 match on Friday and a 3vs1 match on Saturday ("we" being on the deficient alliance both times). Why should we be scoring points for a team who doesn't have the decency to make their match? Why should we have to pick up their slack? We have trouble, we break things, we have repairs to do, but we care about our matches, we care about our partners, and we do not let them down. Before our matches, I've gone to our partners and literally said, "look, if you want me to jump in there and fix this for you I'd be more than happy to. We need this robot on the field, pronto." But they all see no sense of urgency and think it is no big deal if they miss a match because somebody else will play it for them.


I say that FIRST should do one of three things if a robot is not present on the field.

1. Bring in an alternate, somebody, anybody, who is ready to go at the time. They will be doing it for practice, publicity, and because of GP. They will get no points out of it. The no-show team will still be awarded points, and they should take the alternate out to dinner (the part about dinner would be optional but strongly recommended).
2. Give the no-show team a DQ (this would be an easy incentive to get your but/bot out on the field.)
3. Keep a kitbot on hand for that team to use when they cannot field their own. (teams may abuse this).

My vote goes for #1, but any of these options would be better than the present nothing.

We pay good money to not just field a robot, but to field a robot with two more beside it. Nobody can win this game alone. Give every alliance the fair chance to win that they deserve. How can anybody feel good winning or losing a match 3 on 2 or 3 on 1?

I say 6 robots on the field or no match is to be played. Who's with me?

[Billfred]

From the manual:

A team is declared a no-show, and will be disqualified, if no member of the team is in the alliance station at
the start of the match. Teams that do not show up for a scheduled qualification match will receive zero (0)
Qualifying Points (QP’s) and zero (0) Ranking Points.

I was inspecting a team on Friday morning when they were supposed to be out for a match. They sent a human player to at least avoid the DQ.

Now, you bring up an interesting idea with the surrogates (which are also provided for in the manual). With the short turn-around required in this modern era of FIRST, it might be a little too tight for a team to get in there at the drop of a hat. But if there were an easy way to get a team on a minute's notice, I'd be open to such an idea. (Good luck doing that in Atlanta.)

[sanddrag]

I know the rule has provisions for when there is no one in the alliance station, but a driver does the alliance no good without a robot. The rules need to at the least be adjusted to give a DQ for no robot on the field.

[Matt Attallah]

IMHO - teams should volunteer to be "place setter's but with that team getting a "0" score.

Say team 9999 is suppose to be out there - but 9998 takes their place - 9998 will get NO points but 9999 will get "0" points - that way the teams that are most robust can show off their skills and teams that need help can get the help - and not strand other teams in the dirt!!

[James Dowd]

Maybe FIRST should consider using the kitbot idea previously mentioned.

I was part of the OCCRA Competition in Suburban Detroit while in high school, and they used a "placebo" in some capacity. (I don't remember the exact provisions for its use).

During my year in OCCRA the bot consisted of a drivetrain with a toilet plunger, so it did nothing but play effective defense. Perhaps FIRST could use something of this sort to fill in. I mean a drivetrain that can play defense is better than nothing and will be more entertaining than the alternative.

[Tim Delles]

I see a few things in this thread. A few points that i like are:

• Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.

• Why should something be done?

• Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

First - Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.

Yes, something really does need to happen about this. Wether or not it will is another thing. But ideas such as having the kitbot there and even other robots ready to jump in are both great ideas and should be looked into.

Second - Why should something be done?

It should be done because the matches may be random, but if a team is paired with the same team that can't make matches because of one reason or another the team(s) that does/do make the field should not be penalized more than once. In all reality they shouldn't be penalized at all.

1.) Because it then becomes an uneven playing field. And we all know that FIRST is about even playing fields no matter what.
2.) It takes any competitiveness a team has away because 2 robots can't really take on 3.

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

Very much so it is. You want to be able to contend against other people so that they can really see how thier robot compairs to others. Once again if it wasn't so competitive would high school kids be so enthusiastic and driven by the program?

just my 2 cents.

Tim

[Gdeaver]

It's a physical game. Bots are going to break. That's the way the game plays this year.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

[Tim Delles]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor, the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

[sure_smile]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

every day as an extremely enthusiastic 16-year-old co-captain who loves to learn about other robots and help other teams, the feeling of wanting to be the "girlfriend" of the robot who graciously and professionally wins the match is one that i don't think will ever fade

[laurenlacy]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

as a female i can say for sure YES

[SirLancelot]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way

I definitely feel that way--we get into the stands after scurrying to get the bot fixed two minutes before the match and don't want to see anyone messing with it. If they do, they become the enemy--until we're on their alliance, that is--and it's up to our valiant drivers to crush them. In the most graciously professional way, that is.

~Anna

[Warren Boudreau]

Sandrag,

Teams missing matches has always and probably will remain an issue. After all, as long as you are at the competition you might as well try to win.

Even if a team would field their robot just to take up space on the field and field a human player to help out with ball handling, it would be a help. A couple of years ago, we had a match with a team that wasn't planning on fielding their robot. I begged/coerced them into just placing the robot on the field. It's presence was enough for us to win the match.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to convince those teams that are not planning on fielding a robot for a match to contribute whatever they can to the match. Be it a dead robot or live human player.

The only fair way to replace missing robots, would be for FIRST to build and drive a surrogate robot for teams missing a match. Of course, the team would get no points. Even that idea has it's drawbacks.

[Dan Petrovic]

You are right. Something must be done.

However, nothing will be done.

FIRST challenges the students to make a functional and robust robot. Obviously, some teams do it better than others and robots break. That is all a part of the challenge.

Why do you think there is a 6 week time period? Why do you think there is a 120 lb weight limit, minus battery and bumpers of course. Why do you think there is a 28x38x50 size limit? It's all a part of the challenge. Robots breaking is not only a challenge for the alliance partners, but a challenge for the team with the broken robot.

Nothing is learned without challenges and mistakes. A missing alliance partner helps you learn how to accommodate for the detriment.

You are right. Teams who can put a robot on the field every match shouldn't suffer. But the teams with the broken robots are suffering as well. It's not like they were off having lunch while their fully functional robot sits in their pit.

[bbguy5]

Well at smaller regionals, you dont have time in between matches to lets say, fix your robot if it breaks. Thats probably part of the reason teams are missing matches. I'm sure it will be better at nats.