The promise of college for our generation

[Ken Leung]

I want to post an off topic question because I've been trouble by this question ever since I started college a while ago. I am bringing this up because a lot of my friends are struggling through this issue.

There are a lot of student in college who are there without knowing what they want to do, and what they are going to do after getting out of college. There are a lot of students who even before going to college, already have trouble figuring out what their future is. There are a lot of students who struggle in college without knowing what they are struggling for.

So, I want to post this question to you. Are we setting students of our generation on too high of a dream, promising anything and everything as long as they go to college and get a degree, without backing that promise up with something that helps students realize what path they should take, and what their dreams should be? Are we telling them to take these journeys, without giving them a clear idea of where that journey leads to?

In other words, are we promising too much, and when the students realized they have to have their own dreams and their own goals, and they fall extra hard because there's no one to catch them and show them the way?

I am asking this question in a very general way, because a lot of FIRST students go to college knowing what they want. But I don't see the same for a lot of other students (ie. students who haven't participated in FIRST).

I welcome everyone to join this conversation, whether you are a mentor, high school student, or college student... Please, by all means, go beyond my questions and share with us any thought you have about this subject.

[MrForbes]

It's probably been that way for at least 40 years....

Seems to me that you have to live life for a while, try out some different careers, to get a feel for what you really want. The problem is that it's so much easier to learn while you're young, but you probably won't know for sure what you want to learn until you're older.

Obvoiusly I don't have a solution for the problem !

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Thanks for these words of wisdom.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way students handle the college search, and decide where they are going to apply. I had the fortune of having visited 5 of the 7 schools I applied to before I started the process, so I feel I was at an advantage. However, I want to quote someone who said something very wise about her own search. It deeply impacted me even after I had finished the process - let's just say that since there are people with this mindset, I think things are going to be OK:

Originally Posted by BurningQuestion

I applied to only three schools, and was accepted into all of them: RPI, WPI, and University of Miami. All three of them gave me a considerable amount of financial aid/grants/loans, and all three have excellent engineering programs. However, I decided upon the University of Miami for the same reasons that I decided NOT to apply to the Ivy League schools and places like MIT and Caltech.

I believe that I am as bright as any of the people who choose to go to the really prestigious schools, and had it been my goal throughout high school, I could have gotten in and attended those schools. But I am not in love with academics. I am not the type of person who develops a strong passion for receiving perfect grades and test scores. I enjoy learning, but I am not very good at playing the "school game". Managing my time is difficult for me, as is staying organized (gosh darn ADD). Always having a 4.0 average is not my talent, and I never felt the desire to make it the central focus of my high school career. Of course, I always maintained good grades throughout high school (A-/B+/an occasional C), but they weren't perfect. Certainly not the kind of grades that Yale or Harvard would be looking for.

I used to feel bad about the fact that my transcript never seemed to match up with my true potential. However, I now realize that the fact that I DON'T obsess over my GPA means that I would probably HATE being in an environment where every other student was the class valedictorian. This is why I decided that schools like MIT and Princeton were not the right settings for me.

The other reason why I decided against the engineering powerhouse schools because I was interested in being a part of a small engineering program where my professors would know me by name. The University of Miami turned out to be perfect in this aspect because of the size of it's engineering program - only about 200 students in the freshman class. After speaking to many people, and making several visits, I found the atmosphere at the UM College of Engineering to be friendly, nurturing, and almost familial. Not to mention that the engineering program is one of the top 100 in the country. I loved the fact that while I would be working alongside qualified professors and bright students like myself, I would rarely find myself in a high-stress, high-competition situation. Students work TOGETHER on hands on projects, not against each other. Plus, I was enthused by the fact that there has always been 100% job placement for engineering students, and many opportunities exist for hands on undergraduate research.

So, thats my story. I am proud to be a Hurricane and I am totally enthused and excited about the coming four years. My advice: just because a college has a fancy name attached to it, doesn't mean it is the right place for you. If you are not the type of person who enjoys playing the academic "game", look for a college that will nurture you, instead of push you to be a perfect academic.

-- Jaine

Can be found in context here .

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov

Thanks for these words of wisdom.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way students handle the college search, and decide where they are going to apply. I had the fortune of having visited 5 of the 7 schools I applied to before I started the process, so I feel I was at an advantage. However, I want to quote someone who said something very wise about her own search. It deeply impacted me even after I had finished the process - let's just say that since there are people with this mindset, I think things are going to be OK:



Can be found in context here .

I appreciate your reference to my post Genia.

I am very tired, and I want to go to bed soon, so I think I will make a longer post regarding the subject of this thread at a later date. However, the fact that Genia brings up my post warrants a quick response in regards to it on my part.

I was talking to a good friend on line tonight, who told me that there were a few people who were offended by the post I made about my college search. They felt that I was "stereotyping", making "generalizations", and undermining the hard work that they put into making into the "elite" schools such as MIT, Caltech, etc.

I want to take this opportunity to clarify the intentions of that post, because it is relevant to this thread topic.

My intention in writing that post was not to insult anyone. My true intention was to point out that the Ivy League isn't necessarily the best place for all "bright" students. Many times, students hold the misconception that the more "competitive" the school is, the better the education they will receive there.

The above statement does NOT mean that I believe the elite schools can't offer any students a good education. There are many different types of learners, and I happen to be the kind who doesn't do well at strenuous academic work, but excels at hands-on, non-competitive work. However, there are certainly students who excel in the atmospheres that the Ivy League schools provide. It's all a matter of whether or not your work habits are compatible with the environment that is offered by the school.

In writing that post, I wanted to offer an alternative perspective to the students out there who are similar to me - those who don't do well with "academics", but love learning anyways. I wanted to explain to future college students that the highly competitive schools are not necessarily the BEST place for them to get an education. Just because a school is well known doesn't mean that it will be conducive to your work habits. In my opinion, choosing a school for it's "name" (not its characteristics), is just as bad of a choice as picking a school because "your friends are going there." There is just no guarantee that it will be the best place for you. I realized that the highly competitive schools weren't the right place for me, and I am encouraging all prospective college students to consider what the best environment truly is for them.

No matter what school a student gets into, the same amount of congratulations and respect should be given to anyone who recognizes and chooses the school most compatible with their learning style. I am just as proud of the friends of mine who got in to Dartmouth (because it was the best school for them) as the friends of mine who are opting to do to community college (because it was the best school for them), and you should too.

If you take issue with either of my posts, I am sure it is because I am not explaining it well enough. If something bothers you, please PM me, and I will do my best to clarify my statements.

-- Jaine

[Ken Leung]

Let us agree that the best college for us may not necessary the most competitive schools in the country, and let that be that. Jaine, I think you have a good point, one worth standing on, and you shouldn't feel bad expressing what you really think. There must be others out there who believe the same thing (I happened to be one of them).

Getting back to the topic, let me articulate my position further.

While there are many definition for success, for example, getting through a difficult challenge, exploring the world, getting a higher degree, learning how to learn, and finding your passion, which I agree are great achievements for any college students, I think it is more important to look at the flip side of them.

College CAN be many things for many students, but it CAN also be the following things to some students I know:

College is something they want to get over as soon as possible and want nothing to do with afterward.
College is a collection of cutting classes and missing as much work as possible and scrape by with the minimal effort.
School and learning are something they hate, and homework and tests are something they hate worse.
College is something they struggle with, have no idea why they struggle with, and something they don't know how to succeed in.

And here is the worst: College is something someone told them to go to.


I do not disagree there are many cases of success in colleges across the United States. I do, however, want to point out that it seems to me there is a raising feeling of not knowing what the point of college is among the students. I do not yet have any evidence to support this observation, other than observations I made from friends in my school. That's is why I raised this question, becuase I do not know all the facts (I doubt anyone does).

Do you agree, or disagree with this? Is our generation more aware or less aware of the point of college? And is the lack of this awareness the reason why so many students are struggling through college?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

College is something they want to get over as soon as possible and want nothing to do with afterward.
College is a collection of cutting classes and missing as much work as possible and scrape by with the minimal effort.
School and learning are something they hate, and homework and tests are something they hate worse.
College is something they struggle with, have no idea why they struggle with, and something they don't know how to succeed in.

That right there is about the best way to sum up our (what I believe to be) failing educational system.

I do agree, although unfortunately I do not have any answers or solutions.

School is not fun. FIRST is fun. But not every school has FIRST, and even fior the ones that have FIRST, not every class is FIRST. There are more things to learn in life than you learn in FIRST, but something about the structure of it makes you learn while not even realizing; and you have fun at the same time too.

Maybe that is the key: To truly learn something well, you should not realize you are in the process of learning until after you have learned it and surpise yourself in a magnificent display of your skills.

Heck, I don't know. It is late. Sounded interesting for tonight though.

I am kind of thinking though in an extraordinary education, you don't even realize you are learning. Does that make any sense to anyone?

[Taylor]

When was it ever stated that College/High School/Life was supposed to be fun? "Fun" is such a subjective concept - I'm sure there are millions of people in the world that would have absolutely no interest in FIRST, its competitions, or its philosophy. In fact, I'm sure there are many people and cultures that would despise what FIRST is and what it stands for. They would say it is hypocritical at its very core - it is trying to get attention away from glamorized sports and entertainment, but uses sport and entertainment as its foundation for its culminating activity.
Mind, I'm not one of those people. But I hope you see my point.
College in and of itself is not students cutting class, it's not boring professors giving boring lectures, it's not a 24-hour drunkfest at some fraternity house, it's not impossible final exams designed to flunk half the students.
Not to say these things don't happen, but to me that's like saying America is a country of toothless inbred obese people. Which may be a pervasive view of America from the perspective of other countries - the pendulum swings both ways. What stereotypes do you have of citizens of France? Mexico? Afghanistan? Japan? Kenya? Does that mean everybody in those nations are exemplified by a stereotype, true or untrue as it may be?
No, college is an opportunity. College is the chance to better oneself by spending time with the professor after class, to reason through the "boring" lecture on microbiology. Some things just aren't fun - does that mean we don't need these things?
College offers so many opportunities, challenges, rewarding experiences, both in and out of the classroom. It is unfortunate that the view of it is biased by the poor decisions of some of its students and faculty. Some students choose to skip class/sleep through lectures/waste time and brain cells through inappropriate behavior. If only they knew what they were missing.
I was just discussing with a colleague earlier that it's too bad that we don't realize the opportunities available to us until after they have passed. If I had college to do over again, it would certainly be different.
Don't let your college experience be flavored by the poor choices by other people, no matter who they are. Life is what you make of it - what you get out of college is proportional to what you put into it.
"It has been my experience that people are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be." - Abraham Lincoln.

So ends Part One - Part Two to come.

[Taylor]

You are absolutely correct - it is unfortunate that college is promoted as the destination. Many people make career and life decisions during or after their college experience, me being one of them. I went through four majors before I landed on the one I graduated with - and that's not what I do now. But I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't gone on the academic path I took, and I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
As I look back on college, I see that I learned a ton of academic information. I learned high-level mathematics, conceptual and applied physics, computer programming, psychology, philosophy, journalism, law, public speaking techniques, geology, chemistry, ad nauseum. But the things I learned that affected me most were the things I learned about myself - as a student, as a lover, as a Christian, as a human being, as an American, as a proud alumni. There is a definite maturation process that occurs in the college years, and in my experience, that, as much as the "fancy book-learnin", shapes people and helps them in their careers.
I hate to break it to you, but college is not the pinnacle of the mountain. There is a lot of climbing to get there, and I hope you've got a good sherpa and oxygen tanks. But when you get to the top, you realize it's a springboard to reach new heights.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by boiler

college is not the pinnacle of the mountain. There is a lot of climbing to get there, and I hope you've got a good sherpa and oxygen tanks. But when you get to the top, you realize it's a springboard to reach new heights.

Well said.

College is about individual growth and maturity, and finding a field of study that interests you. I was told recently that many college students change their major 3 or 4 times from their freshman year through graduation. Some might say that was bad, but I would say "AWESOME" becasue the college experience probably introuduced them to a field of study and potential career that they did not know existed before they arrived on campus. You learn to learn, learn to think and learn to be responsible for yourself.

True, college is not for everyone, and even high school is not for everyone. But I can tell you I know many people who dropped out of high school or never made the committment to go to college and regret that decision now, and I cannot name a single person who DID graduate from college and regrets that decision.

There are lots of statements in this thread about "many more" and "nobody" and etc. Does anyone have any DATA to back up those statements? Just curious, since college attendance and graduation rates are on a continued rise.

[Joe Matt]

Life is hard. College is very hard. As some might have noticed with me (or will at Champs), I've matured quite a bit at college. I matured a lot over FIRST, but college put about twice as much into maturing me. You need to be prepared for the fall you'll face. It will happen, and it will be very bad. It's up to you how you handle it. I've thought about if business/communications/etc would be a better fit, but I feel that engineering just hasn't been given a chance yet, and I still feel that this is the way now, even with finals around the corner.

I'm comfortable to admit that I'm going to re-take intro physics for engineers over the summer. I FAILED the course, I want to admit that. I've never failed a class before. NEVER. Why am I telling you guys this? Because if it helps one kid who realizes that he/she's not the only one, then I'm happy. I know one kid who has retaken Calc 1 and will retake physics again. He still wants to be an engineer.

Just because you don't go to college, you change your major, change your school, etc, DOESN'T mean that you fail at life, and it doesn't mean you will not change the world. Steve Jobs & Bill Gates are two PRIME examples of this. The longest running CEO of all time, Michael Eisner of Disney was an english major out of a small liberal arts college in Ohio, not some Ivy league or major college. For every Lary Page & Serji there is another guy who graduated from a small college who has impacted the world greatly, or, never even graduated college, such as Steve & Bill.

The promise of the future is hard. Right now we're fighting an uphill battle against other countries. While we're focused on war and American Idol, they're focused on science, technology, and learning. Not much motivation now, eh?

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

Life is hard. College is very hard. As some might have noticed with me (or will at Champs), I've matured quite a bit at college. I matured a lot over FIRST, but college put about twice as much into maturing me. You need to be prepared for the fall you'll face. It will happen, and it will be very bad. It's up to you how you handle it. I've thought about if business/communications/etc would be a better fit, but I feel that engineering just hasn't been given a chance yet, and I still feel that this is the way now, even with finals around the corner.

I'm comfortable to admit that I'm going to re-take intro physics for engineers over the summer. I FAILED the course, I want to admit that. I've never failed a class before. NEVER. Why am I telling you guys this? Because if it helps one kid who realizes that he/she's not the only one, then I'm happy. I know one kid who has retaken Calc 1 and will retake physics again. He still wants to be an engineer.

Just because you don't go to college, you change your major, change your school, etc, DOESN'T mean that you fail at life, and it doesn't mean you will not change the world. Steve Jobs & Bill Gates are two PRIME examples of this. The longest running CEO of all time, Michael Eisner of Disney was an english major out of a small liberal arts college in Ohio, not some Ivy league or major college. For every Lary Page & Serji there is another guy who graduated from a small college who has impacted the world greatly, or, never even graduated college, such as Steve & Bill.

The promise of the future is hard. Right now we're fighting an uphill battle against other countries. While we're focused on war and American Idol, they're focused on science, technology, and learning. Not much motivation now, eh?

Wow Joe Matt!
Is the word - perseverence - anywhere in this thread? I think it just got put here by Joe.

[sciguy125]

It seems that my friends and I (maybe there's a connection here) are in college because it opens doors to various professions. I realize that there's more to it than that, but thats why many of my friends and I are going to college.

To the point of not having a direction, however, several of my friends are in that position. They're in school to get a degree. Not to get a degree that will help them with their career goals, but simply to get a degree. The reason is that they still don't know what they want to do, so they don't really have any career goals to work toward. Actually, I know someone that changed their major because they weren't happy with their academic career, not because they didn't like the jobs it was going to give them. To me, being in school just for the sake of being in school seems like a waste of energy. There's plenty of more productive things you could do while you try and figure out where you want to go with your life.

A few have mentioned that college gives you an opportunity to see new things and possibly find a direction. Coincidentally, I had one of those "this is what I want to do with my life" moments a few days ago. Apparently, my school has a microelectronics processing lab - it's in the heart of Silicon Valley, so of course it does. There's enough equipment in there to start with a raw silicon wafer and end up with a working IC. My class was only there for some simple stuff (not IC related), but while we were there, we got a tour of the lab. And you know what? That place is so awesome! I've been wanting do do something in the neighborhood of control systems, but after being in that lab, I'm seriously considering IC manufacturing. That decision is a little impulsive for me, so there's no guarantees. But I'm going to at least try to take the IC processing and design class. So, I'll definately agree that college can show you new things you might be interested in.

[KathieK]

I have worked in a college for the last four years and many of our graduating students are graduating with no idea what they want to do with their lives (or their degrees) - it is not unusual any longer.

Many students switch majors more than once because they discover new areas of learning that were not presented to them while in high school. The downside to this is that they are no longer graduating in 4 years.

I went to college not having a clue what I wanted to do, took a class that interested me and discovered a career that I had never heard of, one that I ended up working in for 25 years. Along the way a whole new world opened up, that of the Internet (yes, I am prehistoric and existed before the World Wide Web), and I discovered another new career - one that didin't exist when I went to college. Keeping your options open to new ideas and new interests and new careers is what is important as you head off to college (or any other pursuit in life). Visit your college career center in your FRESHMAN year. Use their tools and experience to guide you.

Consider taking a year off between high school and college. Explore other things. It might help you focus on what you want to do with your life.

And finally, don't beat yourself up if college "isn't for you". The world still needs retail sales associates, mechanics, plumbers... (just ask my husband).

[JoeXIII'007]

Just want to get my 2 cents on this topic, for even though I'm still a Junior in high school, I have a sister who is going to be graduating from Eastern Michigan University with a degree in Business this year, and is on this very familiar track.

I skimmed through some of the responses on here, and someone said that we are being spoon fed in High School.

Personally, I think it is worse. Were not ONLY being spoon fed, but I believe our minds that know what to do for a future (college, tech school, whatever) are being brutally overidden by scenes and images of the 'good life.'

For example, instead of looking at a college for a good education in a field of choice, I fear more and more people think that going to college will automatically grant them a future, and more are choosing one that has a good lifestyle more than anything because of such a false vision.

There are more examples, such as companies making $$$$ that could be spent on future education, but instead its in trade for class rings, prom outfits, and senior pictures. But, I hope you get my point.

So in short, I believe that high schools need to start allowing all options for the future of any student, and not discourage those who chose an alternative to the traditional high school => liberal arts college => career route OR the route with the best possible lifestyle. The real world has many real possibilities, and to shut ourselves to one route is simply wrong.

Sorry if I was redundant in any area.

-Joe

PS: If this could not be any more coincidental, I wonder what could. 5 reasons to skip college from MSNBC and Forbes.

[Peter Matteson]

Wow, where to begin. I'll try to keep this short and to the point.

The academic side of college is really learning how to learn. Classes are supposed to be structured in a way that forces you to take that next step and work on your own to get further along than you are going in. Look at each of us as a toolbox. College is the store where you go and get the tools that fill the box. High school and some early college is learning some lower level tools that get built upon. By the end you should be fashioning your own tools. I'm the first to admit I don't know everything about engineering, but I know how to learn what I need as the situations cmoe along.

More people are going to college now than in the past. The problem facing many of them is that they have been spoon feed and carried along the whole way. Some schools and majors continue this now through college defeating what I described above. The student populace at large has changed over time and colleges have adjusted for it.

College is what you put into it and by many is looked at as a measure of proof that you can work to a goal you don't need to reach but want to. That is why it is a litmus test used by many employers.