CNN: Why do Girls Lose Interest in Math and Science?

[Katie Reynolds]

I thought this might be of interest to some ...

Originally Posted by CNN.com

Government data show that girls fall behind boys in math and science as they progress through school. In the fourth grade, 68 percent of boys and 66 percent of girls say they like science, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.

But only one-third of high school students enrolled in Advanced Placement physics classes are girls, Spellings told summit attendees. At the college level, she continued, fewer than one-fifth of engineering majors are women.

...

Spellings said mothers can inadvertently send signals to their daughters that math skills are not important. Educators must change the culture so it is not acceptable for women to brag about not being able to balance their checkbooks, she said.

...

The full article can be found here.

[Kims Robot]

We were just talking about this last night. We were theorizing it was more the pressures in school. One of our girls was saying how it was driving her nuts that all of the girls in her classes just seemed (or acted) "dumb". Many of them are spoiled and get everything they want from their parents, but as juniors or seniors, we see that its likely they are going to go off to college and not know how to hang a picture because they never had to.

It seems that in larger schools, those are the girls that are "cool" or "popular"... why?? They need everything done for them, and really have no common sense. These girls don't think science, math or technology are "cool" because they are harder subjects... so other girls that want to be "cool" and are desperate to fit in, follow in their footsteps.

Another thing that I've noticed in general (male or female) is that a lot of students these days are afraid to fail. They will take the easier route, or just not do anything at all so that there is no way to fail. We abolished this on our team. We try and push them outside their comfort zones, and show them that its ok to fail. I will give them more praise for trying and failing than I do for them not trying at all.

I even saw evidence of this in college... many of the girls that I knew in engineering majors had boys doing homework for them, and they would just go and whine or cry to teachers when they failed a test, often being allowed to make it up, or turn in extra work for it. It was disheartening to me, and to the girls that I knew that worked really hard to keep up our grades. I even had a friend tell me that in a summer class, he had a professor say he was relieved there were no girls in the class because they really didnt belong in the profession. This blew my mind because the professor was my advisor and I was easily in the top 25% of my class, having done all of my own work.

I really have to believe a beginning to the answer can be the lego league teams. I like the idea that we start with all girls teams, so they arent afraid of how they are going to appear to the boys, and then let them mix on FRC teams in high school. By then they've developed the confidence and they know that they are capable. We started two innercity FLL teams last year, one all boys and one all girls from the same school. The girls did an awesome job, and you could see how excited many of them were with it. They were learning that science & math are cool and they could do it.

Anyways, I think we need to keep studying this trend and keep finding ways to change it. FLL & FRC can be answers, but we need to work at it. Every team should pledge to change at least one girl's mind each year, and we just may change the numbers (I say as I sit here one of two female engineers in an 80 person department...)

[JaneYoung]

2 weeks ago I was at a Lego event here in Austin. LASA Robotics had one of the FIRST robots there for 'show and tell' - our '06 robot hadn't made it back to the shop yet -

I walked around talking to a lot of the Lego teams and met a group from one of the elementary schools. They have a 3rd grade class that meets. They have also formed an afterschool group of 3rd - 5th graders who are a little more advanced. One of the engineers asked me to go over and start talking to one of the girls, Emily, a 5th grader. 4 of the boys had built wonderful machines. One was a sort of helicopter with very fancy blades. Colorful. The other boys had built cars. The girl had built a box with a lid that opened and closed and had side walls that moved. When the box lid slid back, it revealed a small treasure chest. Inside the treasure chest was a golden ring.

She explained the mechanics to me and complained that 'it wasn't good enough.' We discussed that and determined that it was because of time constraints.

I asked her if she had any drafts/drawings of her box and lo and behold, she got under the table and pulled out a sketch on lined school paper. The sketch showed her entire concept complete with the moving lid. We talked a little bit about cadding and her face lit up.

The engineer just stood there smiling. We'll probably meet her in FIRST in a few years because of his mentoring.
Jane

[Greg Perkins]

There are a lot of sterotypical comments regarding women who are in engineering and science fields; more of them pertaining to the fact that the females in these fields are "nerds" and we know where the comments stem from that. I think women need more direction in their lives at younger ages; I've seen far to many times that when a girl goes to thier guidance counselor in elementary school, they usually point them in a direction of a more "domestic" career. When guidance counselors at this age start steering them away from other fields, it seriously deprives them from achieving what they may never know they can do. It's sad really, even though the nation has given womens' rights I still can see that its not completly true.

In my Major in college, ther were 5 girls out of 450 students; what does this demographic tell you? That A) either they are getting into better schools than my college, or B) that most high school girls are'nt interested in careers that will someday make the world a better place. Sure, any girl can go into the hairdressing school, and get out and make mediocre money; or they can go into a difficult field, and reap the benefits of their hard work. I really love what groups like RCU and other organizations similar do. I was a memeber of SME at my college for a while, and if one of those 5 female students wanted to join, they were immedialty turned away. You ladies, you have voices...speak up, be heard. Your future depends on it!

[David Brinza]

For my wife, it was a fifth-grade teacher that discouraged her and all of the girls in his classes from learning math. "I don't expect that you girls will be able to understand this (math), so if you just remain quiet during class, you will pass." That occurred a long time ago, but it created "math-ophobia" for my wife. In spite of having a very analytical mind (yes, she thinks like an engineer), she just doesn't deal well with mathematical expressions.

That fifth-grade teacher's attitude was indicative of the culture that was prominent in decades past. Some of this mentality may still linger, though I'd be surprised if a teacher today would make the same sort of statement in a math or science classroom.

Are there any current students out there that have experienced this sort of discrimination?

[sanddrag]

One girl I know is actually a tutor for math (higher math too), and every Saturday I see her with a welder in hand.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

We were just talking about this last night. We were theorizing it was more the pressures in school. One of our girls was saying how it was driving her nuts that all of the girls in her classes just seemed (or acted) "dumb".

Statistically speaking, most people are dumber than you. That's why you need to excel -- to take care of them.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Statistically speaking, most people are dumber than you. That's why you need to excel -- to take care of them.

My late great-uncle was fond of asking, rhetorically, "would you rather be dumber than you look, or look dumber than you are?"

Looking dumb can give you a tactical advantage, sometimes. Being dumb never helps you, at all.

Note also: neither the occasional tactical advantage of looking dumb, nor the general disadvantage of actually being dumb, is gender-specific.

[Beth Sweet]

I'm not sure that I entirely buy that girls aren't going into science because their mom's are proud that they can't balance their checkbooks. I think that the problem lies a bit deeper: the self esteem/confidence (or lack thereof) of todays girls.

Yes there is a nerd stigma associated with science. But some of the most popular girls from my high school are now majoring in engineering. So I look further at those girls and notice something about them. They are strong and confident. They are not affected by the nerd stigma because they don't allow themselves to be.

My thoughts on how to fix it? Try to fix the confidence factor. It is the one part of this that we can control. We cannot control how their peers treat girls, but if we make our girls as self confident as they can be, then I think that there will be more of them going into science without fear of being "nerds".

[Bridgette]

For the most part, I have been supported in my math and science related endeavors. My parents encouraged my involvement in FLL in middle school. My participation in FLL actually led me to intern for the Navy during the summer before my freshman year of high school! That internship, as well as mentorship from my FLL mentors even after I was finished with the program helped me to keep an interest in math and science as I entered high school.

Without FLL or my older brother's FIRST participation, I don't think I would have discovered my interest in engineering. In fact, due to some conflicts during my freshmen year, I wasn't involved on 121. During my sophomore year, I became a member of 121. I did a great deal of the electrical work on the robot and I also wrote the team's chairman's award submission. I felt that I had to step up to escape from my brother's shadow and prove myself as a contributing member of the team. While my team has been great to me (and I will miss them as I start college in the fall), I still feel that I'm not taken as seriously because of my gender.

Also, some people seem to believe that women in math and science receive preferential treatment because they are in the minority. I have not found this to be true. I agree with Beth about confidence being a major issue. There have been times when I wanted to give up on pursuing a career in engineering. I have had some difficulty with my math and science classes this year (my final year of high school), but it has just made me work harder. I like a challenge, and I like proving people wrong. I know that I want to be an engineer, and I am not letting anyone stop me from achieving my dreams.

So what can be done to keep girls interested? Providing female role models is crucial, but I think career education is important as well. Let young students learn about the many different jobs available for people with degrees in math and science. I don’t feel like forcing girls into math and science will solve the problem, but making the topics more accessible could help. The “glass ceiling” still exists today, and it takes a lot of strength, diligence, and perseverance for women to be treated equally.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Bridgette

Without FLL or my older brother's FIRST participation, I don't think I would have discovered my interest in engineering. .... I felt that I had to step up to escape from my brother's shadow and prove myself as a contributing member of the team. While my team has been great to me (and I will miss them as I start college in the fall), I still feel that I'm not taken as seriously because of my gender.

As an older brother of both a sister and a brother who are about to enter HS in the next year, and year after respectively, I can see the impact I have on their lives, and quite frankly it scares me sometimes.

As my sister is moving from 8th grade to freshman status in HS next year, she has already shown an interest in joining "her big bro's team".

Whether it is just because I am on it, or it's because she wants to really know about robotics and engineering still has yet to be seen.

I'm hoping (for my ego's sake at this point) it's because of me , but that in 4 years from now when she is a senior or graduated HS, that it will have progressed more than just a way to hang out with her older Brother more, and that she will truly be inspired by the program and take something from it.

I don't even care if its engineering related. (I know blasphemy you say!) lol But, being on a FIRST team is about learning not only about engineering and technology, and whether you want to be a part of that world after HS, but also learning about yourself and what kind of person you want to be when you grow up.

Would I love to see both my Sister and Brother become something related to an engineering field when they grow up?? Sure.

Will I be disappointed and angry at FIRST or the program and think it has not done its job if they don't go into an engineering related field?? Nope.

All I want them to do is be on the team and just open themselves up to the possibility of pursuing a career in Engineering. If it's just not their cup of tea so to speak, that's fine with me. But I will support both of them, my Sister and my Brother in whatever they decide to do with their lives.

I think that's what it all comes down to. You don't necessarily need to pursue engineering and technology as a field of study and career, but just be aware that it's out there and there are things to do in the field if you want to. And giving some sometimes biased support towards engineering, but letting them decide their future, no matter what it may be, for themselves, is the way I'll approach this.

Nobody should be limited in the types of career they choose, whether it be engineering, marketing, accounting, medicine, or any other technical, or non-technical related field.

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Statistically speaking, most people are dumber than you. That's why you need to excel -- to take care of them.

I don't know what to think of that. Part of me is cracking up, and part of me is saddened by the fact that that may be true.

[Cynette]

Are girls really losing interest in Science and Math in HS, or are they just pursuing other interests which may make them more well-rounded than their male counterparts? The article only gives two statistics to show the disparity, the ratios in AP Physics and the number of women enrolled in engineering.

But without viewing the statistics behind the news release we don't have the whole story.

What percent of girls take AP classes in total?

What percent take any AP science (Bio, Chem, Earth Sci...)

Does a girl who takes AP English, French and Chemistry dislike science and math more than a boy who takes AP Physics, Statistics and Am. History? Or has she run out of room in her schedule trying to spread her interests out?

How about career selection... what other careers were counted as Science loving careers, or Math loving careers? Do biologists count? Doctors? Pharmacists? Accountants? Business Majors?

Maybe the problem is with the appeal to AP Physics and engineering.

Time out for a caveat...
(I am an engineer. I love science and math and many moons ago I was coerced (talked into) into engineering by a guidance counselor. And while I love being an engineer and sailed through my undergraduate and graduate degrees with a maximum of 20% women in any class, I have discovered that when I grow up, I think I want to be a teacher. Yeah - I'd probably teach science or math. Would that mean I loved science and math less had I become a teacher? I don't think so. )

Back to my initial train of thought...

I have a daughter who is a Junior in HS. Does she like science and math? Not as much as English and Social Studies. But she is taking AP Physics and AP Calculus. Does she like either one of those classes? Not really. Is that my fault or her guidance counselors fault? No. It really is that she has discovered that there are many other things that seem more fun to her.

As a matter of fact she wasn't going to take physics at all, to make room for other classes - like AP Biology and AP Chemistry. See, she doesn't want to be an engineer, she wants to be a doctor. She thought that doctors didn't need to take physics. But when we went through the college catalogs for pre-med, almost all of them said she would need to complete two semesters of physics, so she decided to give it a go. Maybe the schools just do a bad job of explaining what physics is? (I remember not liking physics much when I was in HS either, but it was a tracked science so all college prep students took it. Oops, I digressed again) Maybe HS's give the smart girls too many other classes to choose from, and AP Physisc has the least appeal.

Of her group of AP Physics, Calculus taking, and so on girlfriends - none of them want to be engineers either. But there are 3 doctors, two pharmacists, two biologists, and other assorted careers, none of which should be considered "domestic."

Maybe a new study need to be done... why do girls not choose engineering if they are good at science and math?

Cynette

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Will you be telling me I am not enough of a scientist when I am getting rid of your tumor? Or your child's? I hope not.

[Cynette]

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov
Will you be telling me I am not enough of a scientist when I am getting rid of your tumor? Or your child's? I hope not.

Wow! It only took you 25 words to say what it took me 400 words to try to explain!

[AJunx]

Hello All,

Today, I gave Secretary Spellings' office a call to ask some questions and bring up the topic of FIRST.

The person I spoke with was helpful, he instructed me to write a letter to Secretary Spellings so as to ensure that I would receive a response. I will be writing a letter addressed to Ms Spellings tomorrow, but you know what? I don't think one letter is quite enough.

This is the deal, Dean gave us homework, and here is a great opportunity to get the Secretary of the Department of Education on the FIRST bandwagon. I shall request that everyone, and particularly the girls participating on FIRST teams, do the following:

1) Call Secretary Spellings' Office at (202) 401-3000. When someone picks up, say something like this:

"Hello, my name is __________, and I would like to speak to Secretary Spellings regarding her recent comments on girls losing interest in math and science. I take part in FIRST robotics and I want to impress upon the secretary what a great tool it is for getting girls [and boys too] interested in math and science. I also want to know what the Secretary is doing in the way of supporting FIRST robotics.

2) When the person on the other end suggests that you write a letter, write a letter, it will cost you less than a dollar (or you can fax it) and it could result in increased support of FIRST by the Department of Education. In your letter, tell the Secretary how important FIRST is and tell her about your experience.

3) E-mail Secretary Spellings and make sure "F.I.R.S.T. Robotics" is in the title.


Secretary Margaret Spellings contact info:

+ phone: (202) 401-3000
+ fax: (202) 401-0596 (fax your letter if you can)

+ e-mail: Margaret.Spellings@ed.gov
(e-mail a copy to her secretary @ Christina.Wilson@ed.gov)

+ mailing address: 400 Maryland Avenue, SW, Washington, DC 20202


-Andrew