Conflict with rules R05 & R06?

[Wayne Doenges]

This was posted on FIRST Q&A. Does there seem to conflict with Rules R05 and R06?

Re: Robot lifting outside of homezone

Is it acceptable to lift up disabled or malfunctioning alliance partners and transport them to the homezone in order to score bonus points?

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There is nothing in the rules that would prohibit this action.

<R05> "Wedge” ROBOTS are not allowed. ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with
opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor
defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the
ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an
opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical. Devices deployed outside the
ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage
(e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other
ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the
infraction.
<R06> Ramps, platforms as other mechanisms specifically designed to elevate ROBOTS during
the END GAME are exempt from Rule <R05> when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE.
Such devices deployed outside the HOME ZONE are not covered by this exemption.

[Alan Anderson]

The relevant rules are worded to apply only to interaction with opposing robots. Wedges are not prohibited if they are used only on alliance robots.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Alan,
R06 is pretty specific and in keeping with last year's interpretation. Any part of the robot within the bumper zone must remain within 10 degrees of vertical until the END GAME and "when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. "

[Travis Hoffman]

This needs to be a Q&A. Wayne volunteers! Actually, I'll try to find the time to post this today.

"Devices deployed outside the
ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage
(e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other
ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the
infraction."

These bolded words are not absolutes. I believe the intent of the rule is to permit ramps to be deployed for PARTNERS to use outside of the home zone only. If while deployed, the ramp is actively used to herd tubes or play defense against the opposing alliance, that is not permitted.

An arm is a "device deployed outside the robot footprint". R05 specifically refers to mechanisms (i.e. ramps) AND appendages (i.e. arms). Who's to say lowering an arm to pick up a ringer off the floor doesn't present a wedge-type angled hazard for other robots to drive up on? If the GDC rules in the Q&A that ramps can't be lowered to the floor outside of the home zone because of R05, then unless the rule is rewritten, manipulator arms should not be permitted to do so for the same reason.

Also, since R06 says that all statements in R05 are null and void while within the home zone, does that imply that it's legal to use your ramps to fend off any opposing robots hanging around in your home zone? This would be analogous to the relaxation of pinning and tipping penalties while on the ramps in the Aim High game.

I propose we hold off on further discussion and wait for an official Q&A answer. Then someone will post the answer in this thread.

[kawelch]

Asked and answered...twice.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1261

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by kawelch

Asked and answered...twice.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1261

While this answer satisfies the question of picking up disabled partners, it doesn't answer if you can violate <R05> to do it.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Alan,
R06 is pretty specific and in keeping with last year's interpretation. Any part of the robot within the bumper zone must remain within 10 degrees of vertical until the END GAME and "when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. "

<R06> provides a HOME ZONE exception to <R05>. But <R05> explicitly applies only to interaction with opposing robots:

...ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical...

If you have a wedge-like part but never touch an opposing robot with it, it doesn't violate the rule as I read it.

[ttedrow]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

<R06> provides a HOME ZONE exception to <R05>. But <R05> explicitly applies only to interaction with opposing robots:

If you have a wedge-like part but never touch an opposing robot with it, it doesn't violate the rule as I read it.

From an Inspectors point of view:

If there is an area on any side of the robot that would likley cause an opposing robot to climb up or under the your robot, then it will not pass my inspection.

[Joe Ross]

There isn't any conflict for 2 reasons. Alan did a good job on the first one. The second is that you don't have to use a wedge to lift a robot, there are other ways. In fact, if they are completely disabled, a wedge would likely do you no good.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by ttedrow

From an Inspectors point of view:

If there is an area on any side of the robot that would likley cause an opposing robot to climb up or under the your robot, then it will not pass my inspection.

That is ridiculous...what if this "area" is of use to have an alliance teammate climb up you

[ttedrow]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

That is ridiculous...what if this "area" is of use to have an alliance teammate climb up you

Then you must have a way of protecting that area (an angle +/- 10 degrees of vertical) while outside of the home area. Since the inspectors will not be able to know or verify how the robot will be used during the competition, all robots must be able to meet the wedge requirements while outside of the home zone.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by ttedrow

Since the inspectors will not be able to know or verify how the robot will be used during the competition, all robots must be able to meet the wedge requirements while outside of the home zone.

Remember, inspectors are not the only line of defense here. Both R05 and R06 contain wording that indicates that both the design AND use of these mechanisms is considered when evaluating compliance with the rule. You are 100% correct that you do not know how the robot will be used, so why should you make a judgment on it (as long as it's not a safety issue)? Leave it to the referees, that's why they're there! Some rules are game-time rules and are not the inspector's place to judge.

[Steve W]

I believe that last year one of the inspection points was checking the wedge design.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Alan,
R06 is pretty specific and in keeping with last year's interpretation. Any part of the robot within the bumper zone must remain within 10 degrees of vertical until the END GAME and "when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. "

Can you tell me how you arrived at the conclusion in bold here? Can we not expand very large in the home zone during the teleoperated period?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Can you tell me how you arrived at the conclusion in bold here? Can we not expand very large in the home zone during the teleoperated period?

Sanddrag,
The boldface is from the rule book, just highlighted for this discussion. In the end game when in the home zone, the rule doesn't apply. Although I am a little fuzzy on when the 'end game' actually starts.