Update #16

[Ben Piecuch]

Geez, I'm never the 1st one to notice this.

http://www2.usfirst.org/2007comp/Upd...pdate%2016.pdf

There's not much too it, in terms of the number of sentences. But, I'll leave you to determine how this update inpacts your team.

BEN

[Lil' Lavery]

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

no machine shop for buzz either

[chris31]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

It also says no mobile machine shops. This is shocking as the machine shop at VCU took hours to cut a piece of lexan into a rectangle for us and it was horribly not straight. I think mobile shops like what the Circuit Runners had are nice even though I didnt get to see it.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Team Update #16

Non-FIRST Machine Shops
FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops at any FRC regional event sites, either inside or outside. This also includes grinding wheels, bandsaws and/or drill presses in the Pit. The local Regional Planning Committees have worked hard to provide machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs.

This is a change from previous years. For several years now there has been a rule (<R21> this year) against "private" on-site non-FIRST machine shops or large power tools; but FIRST has allowed teams to use such resources if they make them available to all teams. This year such things are not being allowed at all -- I think the reason has to do with FIRST's liability coverage. Translated: FIRST is vulnerable to opportunistic lawyers if they allow us to use potentially dangerous tools at their events.

I'm not a big fan of this change, but if FIRST says they need to make it then I am not going to challenge them. The shop facilities provided at every FRC event I have attended have been excellent.

At St. Louis last Thursday I had the honor of telling Paul Copioli that the Thunderchickens' band saw, which they have allowed other teams to use at FRC events for many years, would have to be shut down. Needless to say Paul was not happy with the decision, either; but he's a gracious professional and he complied with FIRST's direction.

[meaubry]

Great to hear officially the algorithem issue is being addressd.
And, on lighter note - looks like there will be less to pack.

Grinders have been out for a while now, the real news here is that the mini-drill presses and mini-band saws won't be allowed anymore.

Too bad, those 2 have always been life safers - without them the business should pick up exponentially for the FIRST approved machine shops - let's hope that they can keep up with demand. We really don't need another thing to be upset over.

[seanl]

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by seanl

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

Either can be safe if used properly, either can be dangerous if used improperly. Since you can't do anything about stupidity the only choice is to outlaw them for all. Why one and not the other, who knows?

[MrForbes]

Both drill presses and handheld power drills can be safe or unsafe, depending on how they are used. Perhaps they have another reason for the new rule?

[sanddrag]

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

Brilliant!

I see no reason that a team should have to venture down to the machine shop just to use a band saw or a drill press to cut a single piece of material, and nor would I want to lose a "quick and easy" approach to cutting a simple piece of aluminum angle or Lexan if needed.

A special "drill press and band saw" area at each regional (maybe the size of two pits?) with one of each machine in there, and both being overseen by a judge/volunteer, would be a much better solution from FIRST rather than simply outright banning them.

If they really want to be safe, they can even 'enclose' the area with cloth sides to prevent any bits or chips from flying anywhere*, much like they do with mechanical voting booths, but with much more space around the tools.

I really don't want to see FIRST regress to the point of practically having to wrap everything in bubble wrap to pacify concerns over safety. If I know what I am doing, pay careful attention to what I am doing, and have respect for the tools that I use, then I shouldn't ever get hurt. No matter what injury ever occurs, a lack of one of these is always to blame, unless it's just some freak accident. Then again, in a freak accident a piece of space junk reentering the atmosphere could crash into my house tomorrow...

* Although in all the years I've used drill presses at school, robotics, and in my own basement, I have never seen chips fly more than two or three feet from a drill press. The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

your footnote needs to be full size, because this is likely the real problem....

[Kevin Sevcik]

Guys, you can't stump for both decreased regional fees AND increased safety hazards in the pits. Pick one. While there are many opinions being tossed around here about how hand drills and things are just as dangerous as drill presses and bandsaws, I submit that you probably don't know what you're talking about. Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

As to why drill presses and bandsaws and not hand drills and dremels... Almost all cordless drills max out at less than 1/2 horsepower. Drill presses, meanwhile, start at 1/2 horsepower and move up pretty quickly from there. Bandsaws simlarly. These mini versions are still dangerous and not to be trifled with. Basically, the fact that jig saws and hand drills can be dangerous in some situations doesn't mean that these mini versions aren't more dangerous.

As to suddenly having no options for quickly cutting angle, tube, etc.... Well I've never been failed by a good old fashioned hacksaw and the only injuries they've given me are a few barked knuckles and the occasional scald from tiny hot pieces of screws.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-dave

[Paul Copioli]

This is the last straw for me. This is my last year in FIRST.

Yes. That is what I said. This is my last year in FIRST. It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

In St. Louis, Richard informed me that Bill Miller himself personally instructed Richard to contact me and put a halt to my illegal bandsaw. In true Richard fashion, he even stated a rule that prohibits teams from having private "machine shops". This is classic; we had our bandsaw in our trailer packed away. A team approached us and asked us if we had a bandsaw and we said yes. We unpacked the bandsaw for the team and cut their parts (all of about 5 minutes). This was around 8:30am. At 2:30pm we made an announcement to make it available to all teams. Our bandsaw was illegal because we didn't make it available to all teams at 8:30 when we pulled it out (for another team). Needless to say, no one was able to use our bandsaw.

Richard was doing his job and he did it with class and professionalism. I would not have been able to deliver the message in such a way.

In the last 4 years we have brought our mini mill, mini lathe, and bandsaw to every competition. We have machined parts for at least 100 teams over the past years at competitions. In St. Louis, our mini-lathe was busy on Thursday for 8 hours (at least). We only used our lathe for 1 of our parts.

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul