Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

[Frenchie]

I'm surprised nobody created such a thread yet.

My analysis is based solely on the Detroit Regional (a small, but competitive regional featuring Bees, Chiefs, Chickens, Phoenix, Guerrillas, Dragons and other non-conventional animals)

If the end of Great Lakes Regional hinted at a more defensive game, where strategic ringer placement and ramp would be key to a win, Detroit achieved to convince me.

First of all, kudos to the game committee for coming up with a game where I have yet to see a really dominating robot. This alliance intensive games makes it hard for a single robot, no matter how good, to dominate the game.

Now, onto the three main components of this game:

Rack Game: Winning the rack is not so much about putting the most ringers on it anymore, but putting such ringers in an intelligent fashion in order to maximize their point value. Winning a game with the rack only is currently difficult for most robots as defense is fiercest than ever, strategic ringer placement usually prevent any 7 or 8 rows, and spoilers are starting to be used on a regular basis. All in all, only the best of the best can rely on their scoring abilities to win a game now.

Defense: Defense took a whole new dimension this week. We saw a couple very strong ramp bots such as 247 or 703 keep robots away from the rack for most of the game, and rows of 3 became way more frequent than 6's, 7's and 8's. The final matches at Detroit Regional probably exemplify this aspect of the game: 469 and 302, two decent scorers, were shut down by 903 and 247 who ended up taking the gold with their ramp points.

Ramp: Ramp is decisive. Whether or not this was the original intent of the creators of the game is up to debate, but the facts are here: all semi finals and finals at Detroit regional were won with ramp points. The best alliance partner ever? A great ramp with good defense capability and decent scoring capability. Climbing a ramp is still a challenge for many robots, but as the days go by, drivers are sharpening their skills and engineers improving upon their ramp for, I believe, a ramp dominated game in Georgia.

Overall, alliances are key to this game. I am now convinced that a winning alliance must contain at least one (1) scorer and one (1) ramp bot, and would even speculate that the ultimate alliance encompasses the following robots:
1 good scorer (1114, 25, 67, 217, 302, ...)
1 ramp bot with scoring capability (469, 27, 503, 1023, ...)
1 other scorer

The scorers MUST have the capability/ground clearance necessary to climb the ramp.

Decent scorers are usually all gone when third pick comes back, in which case a good defensive bot will make the difference. Also, an all defensive strategy, such as that pulled out by the Da Bears alliance is still valid.

I love that game . Driving was incredibly exciting. No prediction ever holds and the winner isn't set until the last second.

Excuse all the grammatical mistakes and other redundancies.

Francois.

[Bharat Nain]

While the refs got better from inventing rules, they now decided not to enforce the rules. Sometimes, they don't call penalties because it seems like they don't want to play the "bad guy" role. This is ridiculous. Usually I am very pro-defense, but when it gets to the point where teams arms are breaking, I think the refs should use the rule book. At this point, there is no rule book. Its more like just guidelines and pick what you want to use. This is not meant to be an offense to any of the refs, because you are all good people, and some of you are my friends. However, this year FIRST created a game that is NOT so hard to ref and there are not too many close/hard calls, and yet it doesn't look like the rules can be followed. If I were the one making the game I would be telling myself - what more can I possibly do to make the game referee friendly.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

While the refs got better from inventing rules, they now decided not to enforce the rules. Sometimes, they don't call penalties because it seems like they don't want to play the "bad guy" role. This is ridiculous. Usually I am very pro-defense, but when it gets to the point where teams arms are breaking, I think the refs should use the rule book. At this point, there is no rule book. Its more like just guidelines and pick what you want to use. This is not meant to be an offense to any of the refs, because you are all good people, and some of you are my friends. However, this year FIRST created a game that is NOT so hard to ref and there are not too many close/hard calls, and yet it doesn't look like the rules can be followed. If I were the one making the game I would be telling myself - what more can I possibly do to make the game referee friendly.

Contact is allowed with the robot when that portion is outside the bumpers (like most arms are), and arms can also be broken when legal bumper-to-bumper contact is made and the arm is attached or hung up on the rack.

Teams need to make sure their arms are strong enough for rigorous contact when they are not within the bumperzone.

[Scion13]

At the Chesapeake regional the winning alliance consisted of two exceptional scorers and a defensive robot. Some of them had ramps, but never used them. 293 and 75 just overwhelmed the other alliances with scoring on the rack. However 293 and 75 were the best scorers at the competition so in normal qualification matches ramps will probably play a bigger part.

[T3_1565]

I definatly think your over exagratting a bit on this. I have seen many ramming penalties called, and I haven't even been to a regional yet. And I am pretty sure the rack itself can do that much damage to your bot on its own if your not careful. I think the refs are doing just fine given the amount of things they have to consider. if your arm breaks during a match you obviously didn't build a strong enough arm and/or it got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. accidents do happen, and the rack is a beast of its own keep that in mind.

Edit: in response to Bharat Nain

[Grant Cox]

I'm going to say the same precursor as Francois; my analysis here is based off of only the Detroit regional. Also, without seeing any of the videos from above (my view from behind the player station is somewhat tunnelled), I may be making some incorrect calls here. However, this is what I, as the driver of a primarily offensive robot, emotionally feel about the game now.

I think the ramps have destroyed the point of the Rack n' Roll game. They have become not a bonus, but a requirement for elimination matches. I think that the GDC was expecting more rack scoring to be done and fewer matches like in the brutally defensive Detroit finals, which is why the ramps are worth so many points. Think about Aim High last year; the maximum bonus you could get (excluding auton) was 25 points, and that was if all 3 robots could make it up a 30 degree incline with barely enough room. Now, you have more than double that (pointwise) for two robots to get up a nice shallow ramp with plenty of room (look at the ramps on 469 and 27 for what I mean).

However, I'm going to have to disagree with ya, frenchie. I now have a personal stigma about the whole offensive vs defensive issue, and anyone who was at Detroit knows why. Defense is absolutely key in this game. In one qualifying match, 703 pushed us literally in a circle around the rack, and in the elims obviously 247/903 were dominating (more about that in a second). Defense doesn't just mean stopping ringers anymore; it now also means stopping the opposing defense from getting to your scorers so that they can be given the chance to do what they do best.

Segway-ing from that last line, there is NO scoring robot that can make it through a double team from the other alliance's two defensive bots. This was proven wholly at Detroit. The double team of 247/903 was able to easily shut down 217, and were together able to give 469/302 a ridiculously hard time. I like to think of us three as being fairly good scorers. If it was my own alliance, I would still prefer 2 offensive + 1 defensive ramp as always, but 2 amazing defensive can really frustrate the other alliance (especially if that other one only has one scorer).

Finally (and this goes along somewhat with the defensive notes), driver skill is an enormous asset to have in this game. For defending teams, being able to hold your ground against a squirrelly offensive bot can be tough at times. For a scoring team, being able to drive around a team like 247 or 703 is key. You have to try and make best of whatever is happening; things like picking up a tube while being pushed, or placing the tube on whatever ringer you're pushed into (regardless of what your original plan was).

Disclaimer: My head is kind of scrambled with a lot of thoughts about the insane weekend, so there may be half-finished statements here and there, but I stand firm (for now at least) about everything said here.

Edit: wow, you guys reply fast a lot of the stuff in here was said above while I was typing this, I guess

Originally Posted by Josh Murphy

There was one point in Detroit when we were pinned against the rack by our opponents on friday and we were not moving and they just continued to push and broke our cross pieces.

Is that the match where the pushing was moving the entire rack? That was unbelievable to watch, and I was stunned when there were no penalties called. I grabbed a quick picture of it on my camera, I don't think I've ever seen the rack (or a robot) being mangled so much.

[Josh Murphy]

Originally Posted by GeeForce

I'm going to say the same precursor as Francois; my analysis here is based off of only the Detroit regional. Also, without seeing any of the videos from above (my view from behind the player station is somewhat tunnelled), I may be making some incorrect calls here. However, this is what I, as the driver of a primarily offensive robot, emotionally feel about the game now.

I think the ramps have destroyed the point of the Rack n' Roll game. They have become not a bonus, but a requirement for elimination matches. I think that the GDC was expecting more rack scoring to be done and fewer matches like in the brutally defensive Detroit finals, which is why the ramps are worth so many points. Think about Aim High last year; the maximum bonus you could get (excluding auton) was 25 points, and that was if all 3 robots could make it up a 30 degree incline with barely enough room. Now, you have more than double that (pointwise) for two robots to get up a nice shallow ramp with plenty of room (look at the ramps on 469 and 27 for what I mean).

However, I'm going to have to disagree with ya, frenchie. I now have a personal stigma about the whole offensive vs defensive issue, and anyone who was at Detroit knows why. Defense is absolutely key in this game. In one qualifying match, 703 pushed us literally in a circle around the rack, and in the elims obviously 247/903 were dominating (more about that in a second). Defense doesn't just mean stopping ringers anymore; it now also means stopping the opposing defense from getting to your scorers so that they can be given the chance to do what they do best.

Segway-ing from that last line, there is NO scoring robot that can make it through a double team from the other alliance's two defensive bots. This was proven wholly at Detroit. The double team of 247/903 was able to easily shut down 217, and were together able to give 469/302 a ridiculously hard time. I like to think of us three as being fairly good scorers. If it was my own alliance, I would still prefer 2 offensive + 1 defensive ramp as always, but 2 amazing defensive can really frustrate the other alliance (especially if that other one only has one scorer).

Finally (and this goes along somewhat with the defensive notes), driver skill is an enormous asset to have in this game. For defending teams, being able to hold your ground against a squirrelly offensive bot can be tough at times. For a scoring team, being able to drive around a team like 247 or 703 is key. You have to try and make best of whatever is happening; things like picking up a tube while being pushed, or placing the tube on whatever ringer you're pushed into (regardless of what your original plan was).

Disclaimer: My head is kind of scrambled with a lot of thoughts about the insane weekend, so there may be half-finished statements here and there, but I stand firm (for now at least) about everything said here.

Edit: wow, you guys reply fast a lot of the stuff in here was said above while I was typing this, I guess

Is that the match where the pushing was moving the entire rack? That was unbelievable to watch, and I was stunned when there were no penalties called. I grabbed a quick picture of it on my camera, I don't think I've ever seen the rack (or a robot) being mangled so much.

I think it may have been because we were getting pushed pretty good and I finally just said heck with it and let go of the controls and our ramps got deployed and they continued this for about 10 sec non stop and no penalty was called. There was also a time on friday where we were triple teamed. Oh well this is the game and we have to play it.

[Frenchie]

What if the key to the game were the last 30 seconds? Think about it: defensive teams HAVE to go back in the end game to score their ramp points. An offensive alliance will be able to put up 3 ringers at least during the 1 min 30sec of intensive defense. If such alliance can manage to put 3 more during the last 30 secs without defense... bye bye ramp advantage?

This is pure speculation though, but I can think of a few team that could pull it off.

Francois.

[Steve Kaneb]

When we designed our robot, we figured that the rack would not end up being worth more than 60 points in the majority of matches. Effective blocking of the rack, or blocking of rows with your own ringers is usually enough to turn the "bonus" into the primary scoring for your alliance.

Regardless of what FIRST wanted, this is a game where you have to decide early whether you're getting your points through the rack, or limiting their points through the rack.

[Grant Cox]

What if the key to the game were the last 30 seconds? Think about it: defensive teams HAVE to go back in the end game to score their ramp points. An offensive alliance will be able to put up 3 ringers at least during the 1 min 30sec of intensive defense. If such alliance can manage to put 3 more during the last 30 secs without defense... bye bye ramp advantage?

That is one point that I wholeheartedly agree with. Such is why I would still prefer being on an alliance with 2 offensive and a ramp, rather than a defensive one. In the absolute best case scenario, while the opposing alliance is getting on their ramp, one of your scorers is getting on your ramp while the other scoring bot is getting 2 or 3 more ringers, securing your win. However, there's still a lot of risk; maybe a tube decides to jump up onto your ramp in front of the scorer that's trying to get onto it. There's your 15 points gone, and the scoring robot that remains on the field now has a lot more pressure to attempt to compensate for the other team's 60 that they're about to get.


Atlanta's endgame is going to be insane.

[Lil' Lavery]

It is very interesting to see the complaints about heavy defense and ramp bonus in the Week 3 thread. UTC is always defensive, and 25, frankly, should have been prepared. I am not surprised that they were shut out twice during the finals and encountered heavy defense. Detroit is a little more interesting, but defense is often common in smaller regionals, as the quantity of proficient offensive bots is lower, allowing for defensive teams to take a more prominent role (despite the powerhouse offensive machines).
At Chesapeake (and apparently at Peachtree as well) we saw a whole new game. It might have been, in part, due to the lack of very many quality ramp bots, but isn't the only explanation. The winning alliance at Chesapeake scored a TOTAL (yes, a TOTAL) of ZERO bonus points. 293, 75, and 203 won through the rack and the rack alone. 293 and 75 scored early and quickly on the top level of the rack, a place few other bots could effectively challenge them, and managed to create several long rows (5-7) capable of outweighing any bonus points the other alliance might have gotten. Much like the NJ regional, if the other alliance retreated to score bonus points, 75 and 293 would extend their row long enough to outscore them. 203 played enough defense to prevent the other alliances from creating longer rows beneath. The opposition even resorted to spoilers, but the one time it was placed on a long row, 293 actually removed it (and almost placed it over an opposition ringer). Judging from the reports and pictures I have heard about Peachtree, it was much of the same.
There are several explanations behind this. One is the lack of quality 2@12" ramps. They were few and far between, but even when they did play, they didn't mean a guaranteed win. Another is the stricter reffing at Chesapeake. More penalties were called than at other regionals, but even this didn't fully discourage defense (and it was still very common and quite intense).
As the game evolves, I think we'll see these two styles of play meet somewhere in the middle. Most of the complaints in this thread originate from a New England regional, and a regional with less than 30 teams, both of which create defensive regionals. But Peachtree was a very defensive regional when we attended in 2006, but the winning alliance (as shown here) managed to score 260 points on the rack alone. At the Championship, the quantity of powerful offensive machines will be high enough to create a game between these two realms. Well executed driving and multiple offensive machines will allow for scoring on the rack, while smart placement will prevent many long rows (resulting in lower rack scores, which keeps ramp points important). Spoilers will continue to play a prominent role, especially when larger rows do form, but the value of removing them will also increase. The value of autonomous will definitely be shown as well. Not only are keepers protected from being spoiled, but autonomous essentially represents 15 additional seconds to score (and a keeper is essentially an extra ringer). Because of the exponential scoring, an extra ringer doubles the points of the row (duh), as well as cuts your opponents possible score on that row in half. Imagine now if an alliance can score 5 rings on a purely defensive alliance. Without a keeper, they might lose 60-32 because of bonus points. With the keeper it's a 62-60 win. Now imagine when 2 or 3 bots on that alliance can score keepers.

[Nuttyman54]

I think the game is starting to branch out, with some alliances winning with two decent ringer robots, one defense robot and a good ramp, and some winning with no ramps at all, and absolutely insane rack scoring.

Atlanta will be interesting indeed, as all these styles of play get mixed and matched in the divisions. I can't wait.

[BoyWithCape195]

In reference to the winning of eliminations because of ramping, I would like to point out that the winning alliance of the UTC regional (195, 1124, 558) won all of their matches without the need for ramping**. It was done for a higher score and as a reassurance of a win.

**Ramping was required in one match where, in the end, there was one robot from each alliance on a ramp, in effect, canceling out the ramp bonus points.

[nparikh]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

It is very interesting to see the complaints about heavy defense and ramp bonus in the Week 3 thread. UTC is always defensive, and 25, frankly, should have been prepared. I am not surprised that they were shut out twice during the finals and encountered heavy defense. Detroit is a little more interesting, but defense is often common in smaller regionals, as the quantity of proficient offensive bots is lower, allowing for defensive teams to take a more prominent role (despite the powerhouse offensive machines).
At Chesapeake (and apparently at Peachtree as well) we saw a whole new game. It might have been, in part, due to the lack of very many quality ramp bots, but isn't the only explanation. The winning alliance at Chesapeake scored a TOTAL (yes, a TOTAL) of ZERO bonus points. 293, 75, and 203 won through the rack and the rack alone. 293 and 75 scored early and quickly on the top level of the rack, a place few other bots could effectively challenge them, and managed to create several long rows (5-7) capable of outweighing any bonus points the other alliance might have gotten. Much like the NJ regional, if the other alliance retreated to score bonus points, 75 and 293 would extend their row long enough to outscore them. 203 played enough defense to prevent the other alliances from creating longer rows beneath. The opposition even resorted to spoilers, but the one time it was placed on a long row, 293 actually removed it (and almost placed it over an opposition ringer). Judging from the reports and pictures I have heard about Peachtree, it was much of the same.
There are several explanations behind this. One is the lack of quality 2@12" ramps. They were few and far between, but even when they did play, they didn't mean a guaranteed win. Another is the stricter reffing at Chesapeake. More penalties were called than at other regionals, but even this didn't fully discourage defense (and it was still very common and quite intense).
As the game evolves, I think we'll see these two styles of play meet somewhere in the middle. Most of the complaints in this thread originate from a New England regional, and a regional with less than 30 teams, both of which create defensive regionals. But Peachtree was a very defensive regional when we attended in 2006, but the winning alliance (as shown here) managed to score 260 points on the rack alone. At the Championship, the quantity of powerful offensive machines will be high enough to create a game between these two realms. Well executed driving and multiple offensive machines will allow for scoring on the rack, while smart placement will prevent many long rows (resulting in lower rack scores, which keeps ramp points important). Spoilers will continue to play a prominent role, especially when larger rows do form, but the value of removing them will also increase. The value of autonomous will definitely be shown as well. Not only are keepers protected from being spoiled, but autonomous essentially represents 15 additional seconds to score (and a keeper is essentially an extra ringer). Because of the exponential scoring, an extra ringer doubles the points of the row (duh), as well as cuts your opponents possible score on that row in half. Imagine now if an alliance can score 5 rings on a purely defensive alliance. Without a keeper, they might lose 60-32 because of bonus points. With the keeper it's a 62-60 win. Now imagine when 2 or 3 bots on that alliance can score keepers.

A lesson learned for Atlanta.

[Corey Balint]

So far in this thread, I hear alot of whining, and not enough chatter about how to improve, how to make this game better.

I think this game is getting better as it progresses, still not the best FIRST has mad...by far. But its becoming a little better to watch. I actually saw a QF match this weekend that had half the rack full. I was astonished.