Redabot Goes Home

[Natchez]

Thank you GDC! You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

It's late afternoon at the Championships. The winner of the Magnolia Regional, Redateam, was just eliminated in the semis of Newton. Overjoyed with their performance coupled with hundreds of phone calls from back home congratulating them after seeing Redabot on the NASA webcast, Redacoach decides that Redabot should be part of the celebration planned when they return home. So, with hundreds of parents planning to meet Redateam & Redabot at the school in 24 hours, Redateam packs their crate with tools and prepares Redabot for the bus ride. Everyone is so excited ... it's going to be a great homecoming ... students, parents, mentors, teachers, principal, and sponsors are coming to welcome Redateam home with a demonstration of their now-famous robot, Redabot!!!!!

Based on the 2007 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[JBotAlan]

I had personal experience with this one yesterday, and I think that's why it is on here.

Not so fast: Section 4 of the manual, under 4.12.2 states:

4.12.2. Drayage Company Regulations
Teams cannot take their robot/crates home from any event. They must ship through the SES designated carrier, Roadway, Inc. or use their donated FedEx Express Freight shipment when shipping between events.

I still do not understand the reasoning behind this rule, but it's very plainly spelled out right there. Redabot is required to take the trip home in the box, through the shipping company.

Now can someone explain why?

EDIT: On second glance, this rule is poorly written--it appears to be there to prohibit teams from taking the 'bot home between events. But, because of the poor wording, the robot must be shipped home, too.

[mtaman02]

Redabot came to the championship in a box and so thats how it will return is in a box. It's a safety precaution and probably insurance as well.

[Travis Hoffman]

It's the end of the FIRST season - who cares how they transport it home? Especially if it saves them money in shipping costs or is more convenient? Why prohibit a team from using their own trailer/truck/bus/whatever to get their bot home from the last event of the season? It isn't giving them any competitive advantage - the competitions are OVER.

Also, from a safety inside the building standpoint - I see teams carting their robots out to the main commons area all the time to have them in team pictures. How do they get outside at that level? Is this allowed by the GWCC personnel? If so, I submit that it would be equally as justifiable and permissible for a team to cart their robot to the loadin/loadout area of the building.

The crate obviously has to ship home because no one's going to dispose of it for a team, but what's truly the harm in letting them load it up with whatever they like and taking the robot/controls home themselves?

If there are justifiable reasons to disallow this, then I'd be happy to hear them.

[Joe J.]

I agree if its a teams last competition why should it matter how the robot goes home? It makes sence that if a team can take their robot with them, they should be allowed to.

[Protronie]

And what would happen if they slipped into the back of someone van.
If First insist on shipping something home... let them ship the empty box home.
It is the last event of the season... so what could happen?

[KTorak]

Rules say it can't be taken home with the team, but I disagree with the rule. It's the end of the season and it would save the team shipping costs. So if they have the capability to take it home with them, they should be allowed to.

[Cody Carey]

Let them do it. Having a robot at home will greatly improve the understanding of FIRST to members of their home community. Technically, they would have to ship it home in the crate, but Exactly like Mr. Hoffman said, The season is over. It won't give anyone a technical advantage, and it could save teams a little money. I say that this rule was poorly worded, and seems a little much like corporate red tape.

It might be against the rule, but here's the real question: Is it really going to matter?

Honestly, letting a team take a bot home AFTER THE SEASON IS OVER should be chill, because the game is over! If you're in a Tae Kwon Do tournament (west coast league, up near me...), they require you to ship your gear in a box, or leave it on their shipping zone the night before, so they can inspect it for cheating (no metal, etc). They're not gonna inspect it before letting you take it home, it's over. Same thing here, basically.

[ebarker]

It's an easy call.

This rule is designed to maximize the safety and operating efficiency of the whole event that is happening in Atlanta. It is impractical to optimize things to suit a single team, when so many other criteria has to be met.

In other words, they are doing their best to maximize everyones safety and enjoyment. If a particular team is unhappy with that then that is just tough. It's a good rule that takes into account a lot of things.

They are shipping it to you for free, courtesty of Fed-Ex. If you had to pay it would probably cost you a $1,000. Thats $344,000 for the whole FRC field. And you don't even have to move it out of your pit.

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by ebarker

It's an easy call.

Yes, according to the rulebook it is.

Originally Posted by ebarker

This rule is designed to maximize the safety and operating efficiency of the whole event that is happening in Atlanta. It is impractical to optimize things to suit a single team, when so many other criteria has to be met.

In other words, they are doing their best to maximize everyones safety and enjoyment. If a particular team is unhappy with that then that is just tough. It's a good rule that takes into account a lot of things.

What other criteria do you refer to? I think of it this way:
--FIRST trusts us to transport our robot to and from the field, onto the cart and off of the cart, into the crate and out of the crate. We know what is safe and what isn't; we know enough to tie the robot down well in whatever mode of transportation we use. There is quite clearly no safety issue at hand here.
--We are not asking event personnel to load the robot into our vehicles; we will do it ourselves. This will require no more effort from Shepherd (sp?); in fact it will require less due to reduced weight of the crates.
--There isn't a traffic issue--teams already clog walkways with toolboxes, carts, totes full of spare parts, etc. during the end of the event. Our team has about 15-20 separate pieces that must be hauled out to the truck; we used the same path we would've to bring our robot out to bring all of this cargo out. One more piece of cargo from each team is not going to hurt traffic one bit.

Originally Posted by ebarker

They are shipping it to you for free, courtesty of Fed-Ex. If you had to pay it would probably cost you a $1,000. Thats $344,000 for the whole FRC field. And you don't even have to move it out of your pit.

--That's $344,000 that Fed-Ex is out. They graciously donated all those waybills, and because of this, we should keep our crates as light as we can, not load them as heavy as possible. Our crate would've been much lighter with just tools in it--making it easier and safer to transport.
--It's not like we weren't using this service--the crate would've contained almost all of our machines (band saw, drill press, belt sander, etc.). We didn't turn our noses up on it; we simply would've used it in a different way. The robot is actually easier to transport for us, and a lighter crate is obviously easier to transport for Fed-Ex, so it would've been beneficial to both parties if we had been allowed to drive the 'bot home.

I do not find a single valid point to base this rule on, therefore I must write it off as a wording anomaly that needs to be corrected for next year. Once I get permission from a mentor, I will probably e-mail FIRST about this.

I am still willing to discuss here if you wish, but that's where I stand right now.

Fairly frustrated,
JBot

[mtaman02]

I guess there are not alot of teams who enjoy the Shepard & FedEx services. These companies were hired to ship our goods b/c many teams do not have the capability (Money and proper equipment) to ship it themselves. If you want to carry your robot around with you everywhere you go then so be it, petition FIRST to make it an option to have your robot transported any way you like, Whether you teleport it, FedEx it, UPS it, DHL it, drag it behind your vehicle. FIRST went out of the way to get a company to take care of this issue and you should use it to the fullest extent that is allowed in their contract. But once you take the responsiblity of handling your robot you must stick to it from start to finish - The only time FIRST will step in is when the robot is being transported from the school to its first regional - so that the robot is out of team hands. After that it is the teams responsiblility to have the robot at its next event unchanged from when it left its first destination. Which means every detail about the robot will be recorded from its first regional to its next event to ensure no MAJOR changes were made other then the obvious wear and tear parts. The teams want responsiblilty to ship their robots from the championship fine you can have it but you will have to do it throughout the entire season.


BTW: If you feel compelled to negative point me please do so just remember one thing - They're just dots and really hold no meaning =).

[Pavan Dave]

It is completely legal,


14.12.2

4.12.2. Drayage Company Regulations
Teams cannot take their robot/crates home from any event. ...

But what defines a robot? Lets go to the FIRST Manual to see their definitions.

FIRST Manual Section 8 - The Robot (Too long to quote so here is the direct link)

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ev%20G.pdf

If you read section 8 they provide rules regarding your robot but not a specific definition, therefore the following criteria minimum must be met to be counted as a "robot".
The Robot Controller mounted to some material, that runs off of a 12V battery and a 7.2V backup battery and that fits your class. Also you might need to have a power distribution block and the 120amp circuit breaker if you wanted to get into the rules a bit more.

Pavan.

[Dan Richardson]

I guess the real question is... If the championships have concluded, this means the FIRST season is over. Does the FIRST rule book still apply? Because I've really wanted to start using my drill press and band saw again lol.

[GaryVoshol]

You've got to get the crate out of the pits and out of the building. Think of the massive jam-ups that could occur if 300+ teams tried doing that.

Are you going to carry that crate all the way from your pit to the loading dock? That's just begging a catastrophe to happen.