WOW-- Did I miss something?

[FIXIT]

I’ve been reading all the threads about the race to the finals and I have not found anything said about the call during the semi finals (330,910,1270 -vs- 71,179,233) where team 1270 the “Red Dragon” was disqualified.

I remember watching the match and saw the “Beast” put up a good fight in trying to position itself to score. I also saw the “Beast” flip over as it was trying to push the “Red Dragon “out of the way. Nothing in what I saw would warrant a disqualification. Is there something I missed?

Overall, it was a great tournament. In my book, teams 330, 910, and 1270 were awesome!

[GaryVoshol]

Perhaps what a lot of people missed was the score of that match. The ref could issue a red card simply for effect. That alliance had already lost.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

Perhaps what a lot of people missed was the score of that match. The ref could issue a red card simply for effect. That alliance had already lost.

Ya they lost without the DQ, but did you miss the fact that they immediately disabled 1270 for the remainder of the match (near the beginning of the match)? I'm not saying anything about whether it was a good call or not (because I haven't seen a good view of it). I am just saying that it definitely affected the outcome of the match. If 1270 had put up 1 tube or climbed 330's ramps they would have tied or won.

[SamC]

Does anyone have video of this match? I would really like to see exactly what happened (I was watching my team, then heard cries from across the aisle
[71 & 233 was sitting there] and then saw 71 on its back). The video on the blue alliance shows them, then shows them on the ground and skips the whole falling over part.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

I too wondered about this. I didn't have the best view and it all happened way too quick, but to me it looked like 1270 was at least a robot's length away when Hammond fell. Its not something that needs a huge argument or discussion about...what's done is done...but it'd be nice to understand what really did happen.

Kev

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

I too wondered about this. I didn't have the best view and it all happened way too quick, but to me it looked like 1270 was at least a robot's length away when Hammond fell. Its not something that needs a huge argument or discussion about...what's done is done...but it'd be nice to understand what really did happen.

Kev

I was down on the field as human player but I didn't even see what happened on this one. I think what it was is that 1270 did push them over but it was accidental. The reason it was called as harshly as it was was a lack of bumpers. If 1270 had bumpers it probaly wouldn't have been red card worthy, but I honestly don't know.
But to echo what Kevin is saying, please don't make this bigger then it has to be. What's done is done, and now it's time to focus on the post season.

[FIXIT]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

I was down on the field as human player but I didn't even see what happened on this one. I think what it was is that 1270 did push them over but it was accidental. The reason it was called as harshly as it was was a lack of bumpers. If 1270 had bumpers it probaly wouldn't have been red card worthy, but I honestly don't know.
But to echo what Kevin is saying, please don't make this bigger then it has to be. What's done is done, and now it's time to focus on the post season.

I don’t think bumpers played a role. The 1270 robot is only 4½ in. off the ground. The Beast seems quite a bit higher and top heavy. What I heard from those on the floor is that the Beast drove up onto the Red Dragon and was flipped over as the Red Dragon drove forward to hang the ringer. I would still like to see some video just to make sure.

I agree, we should not make a big deal of this--even if it cost 330, 910, and 1270 a run at the world championship. It’s only a game. By the way, does anyone have the name of the official that made the call?

[David Brinza]

I watched the match from the stands and thought I saw both robots with ringers trying to score the same spider on the scorer's side of the field. The next thing I saw was 71 flipping backwards and the 1270 robot backing away with the ringer still in its gripper. The head ref immediately ran over to the red alliance station and disabled 1270.

When I got home, I watched the match again (I had recorded NASA TV's broadcast), but during the critical moment, the TV coverage was showing 330 and 179 battling on the crowd side of the rack. The next view had 71 already on the ground and the ref heading towards the red alliance station. Given the head ref's decisive action, he must have felt that 1270 had intentionally tipped 71.

After the very rough play I had just witnessed on Curie, I was somewhat surprised to see the red card flashed on 1270. The message here is that different referees will have different levels of tolerance for aggressive play. After 13-14 matches with a referee crew that "just let's them play", a less tolerant referee can catch you off guard.

It's a hard thing to swallow, but the ref's have a very difficult job and are doing their best to enforce the rules.

P.S. I had posted this a few days ago in the "Einstein?" thread, but it was rather off-topic there. Sorry for the "re-run"...

[Arefin Bari]

Facts:

1) Team 71 and Team 1270, both were carrying a tube and they were both going for one of the middle spiders on the side of the rack.

2) It seemed like team 71's robot needed a little work on CG, because after interaction with 1270's bot it started rocking back and forth (only rocked probably twice).

3) 1270 drove forward while BEAST was rocking back and forth; the BEAST fell on it's back.

I was impressed with both robots and the fight they put up in their own division and on Einstein. Congratulations.

[eugenebrooks]

It happened fast, but it did appear that 1270 went under the robot that got flipped over before it backed away. I am not one to spend much time on the issue of who did what when one robot ends up under another robot. It would have been hard for the referree to interpret it as anything but intentional tipping. People sitting with me saw it similarly.

I think that the lack of bumpers on 1270 was a factor. If 1270 had used standard bumpers it would not have gone under the robot that fell over and I think that the outcome of the interaction (at least the penalty, but likely the win) would have been different. A top heavy robot might have still fallen over, but the referee would have seen the situation differently.

The lesson I take away here is that putting standard bumpers on a robot is a really good idea, but then this is a lesson that I see played at every regional event, every year.

Eugene

[FIXIT]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

It happened fast, but it did appear that 1270 went under the robot that got flipped over before it backed away...

I think that the lack of bumpers on 1270 was a factor...

Eugene

I agree that the Red Dragon was under the Beast. That is why I am still puzzled by the call. It should have been the Beast penalized 10 pts for being outside the bumper zone as stated in rule “G35”. When a robot drives on top of the opponent’s robot they are also in violation of rule “G35” because “a robot may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on an opposing ALLIANCE…”

Also, rule “R37” does not make bumpers mandatory and the lack of bumpers on your robot should not be used against you during an infraction of rule “G35”.

So, what am I missing here?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Ya they lost without the DQ, but did you miss the fact that they immediately disabled 1270 for the remainder of the match (near the beginning of the match)?

Was 1270 E-stopped by the ref? If so, yes I missed that. As did the announcer, as I seem to recall a comment about them being unable to move, and he didn't mention a disable.

Perhaps the ruling was that even though 1270 wasn't shaped like a wedge, it ended up acting like a wedge and thus the tipping was their fault. I don't know, I'm just speculating like all the rest of us.

Oh, and the head ref on the Finals was Chief Ref Aiden Browne, who is also a member of the GDC I believe.

[Tim Delles]

Here is my 2 cents since i watched it happen

71 and 1270 were both going for a spider leg. 1270 hit 71, which caused 71 to begin to rock (maybe 3 times at most). While rocking 1270 drove up under 71. While 71 was tilted back and on 1270, 1270 continued to drive forward, thus tipping 71.

To the ref this would seem like an intentional tip, because 1270 didn't stop moving to show it was not there fault if 71 flipped. If 1270 had taken their hands off from the joysticks so the ref could see they were not moving, and 71 had still fallen over i believe the call would have been different.

[nutron5skills]

This situation is up to the refs because last year the same thing happened with my team we hit a ball going high speed and got up on 2 wheels and then a team drove under us and then pushed us till we tipped, this was not called a tip. So i guess it is a case by case situation.

I was the beast tip on the webcast, and saw beast go on its back and then 1270 stopped 2 feet from the rack, not moving the rest of the match

[meaubry]

Fixit,
the rule regarding driving up opponents is related to ramps.

Facts are facts - no dispute there.
Both had a tube trying to score on the rack, if one tips the other in the process - it may or may not have been a penalty.

If one drove under the other, while not trying to score a tube - it may or may not have been the reason for the penalty.

The ref has the discretion of calling penalties.
Since we are NOT the ref, everything stated about why it was called, is just our opinions.

Did you miss something?

Yep, the ref's decision is final AND we don't always understand them. Sometimes the gray areas are difficult for everyone to agree on. Making the call is a tough job, most the time the ref's are right - sometimes they make mistakes (they are human), and often the results won't make everyone very happy.

Time to move on.