Illegal?

[benhulett]

If anyone has the time, could you tell me if any of the following are illegal? Have a couple ideas for electronics next year..


http://xpcgear.com/ledcanonuv.html [[These will not be visible from the outside of the robot.]] (lol notice how many years they put for 10,000 hours......a tad too much, haha)

http://xpcgear.com/120blueledfan.html
http://xpcgear.com/12ccflwhite.html [[These will not be visible from the outside of the robot.]]
http://xpcgear.com/uvblueslng4.html
http://xpcgear.com/heatshrinkblk.html
http://xpcgear.com/akpaxmatacab.html

Thanks in advance....and sorry if I posted in wrong section.

[Kyle]

I am not sure about the legality of those lights since they can be called as a distraction depending how bright they are, and if they can cause tracking problems with the camera, if we use it next year. Why would you want those lights on the bot if they can't be seen from the outside?
The lights do look cool though

[Cowmankoza]

it is to my understanding that any light can be used on the robot as long as, 1. it is hooked up to a fuse and wiring in safely, and 2. not interefering with another robots vision system (i.e. no green)

[Simon Strauss]

The heat shrink and neon wire cover are both FIRST legal and good ideas. The fan should be aswell. I dont see what you will use the acoustic pad for and the usage dictates its legality as a potential fire hazard if too close to electronics. Aslong as those lights dont interfere with CMU, any other type of sensor or driver visability they should be aswell if wired correctly.

when in doubt refer to the FRC flow Chart http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ot,Rev%20G.pdf on page 19 and the inspection checklists


-Simon

[Darkforces]

we used similar cable sleeving and heat shrink, i dont know about the led and cathodes but they would certainly look cool. After comp we put some in makes the cable sleeving look really cool if u get the uv sensitive kind and put a black light in there.

[artdutra04]

Cold cathode ray tubes are legal in FIRST.

For a very good example of how they could be used on a robot, look for info on Checkmate's (FRC 40) 2007 robot. They used a series of white and red cold cathode ray tubes on their arm to aid their drivers when manipulating tubes.

[benhulett]

Originally Posted by Darkforces

we used similar cable sleeving and heat shrink, i dont know about the led and cathodes but they would certainly look cool. After comp we put some in makes the cable sleeving look really cool if u get the uv sensitive kind and put a black light in there.

-Ah cool, we're not the first to try this then! Yeah the look we're going for is hopefully going to look brilliant in the dark.

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Cold cathode ray tubes are legal in FIRST.

For a very good example of how they could be used on a robot, look for info on Checkmate's (FRC 40) 2007 robot. They used a series of white and red cold cathode ray tubes on their arm to aid their drivers when manipulating tubes.

-Thanks! I guess we'll be putting some cathodes on the outside now too

[Lil' Lavery]

Why not make the box out of a clear material (lexan, polycarbonate, etc.) so you don't need any additional lighting? In addition, you'll need to be able to see the lights on the robot controller, victors, and spikes to pass inspection anyway.
116 has been building "control boxes" for three and a half years now, and we've found you don't need any additional lighting as long as you have a transparent box.

[Billfred]

If you're in doubt about the legality of something after reading the manual, the best solution is to go to Q&A for clarification. Even better, print and bring the Q&A with you to the arena. (Inspectors have access to the printed Q&A thus far, but that's a lot to page through when you're looking for one exact question.) Failing that, be prepared to adapt if the inspector calls you on it.

That said, I don't see any gross problems with the linked parts except for the fan. Why? The fan has a motor not permitted for use on an FRC robot. The GDC explicitly blocked hard drives under similar logic. On the up side, there are fans in the kit you could use for most any purpose.

[Gdeaver]

UV light can screw up the camera. Though at 20 ma these probably would not be to bad.

[benhulett]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I am not sure about the legality of those lights since they can be called as a distraction depending how bright they are, and if they can cause tracking problems with the camera, if we use it next year. Why would you want those lights on the bot if they can't be seen from the outside?
The lights do look cool though

-The electronics on our robot this year was horrible (wiring was everywhere, very hard to work on between matches, had several wires that came loose, etc), so another team electrician and I decided to make an "electronics box" based off a bot we saw at the competition. Their (not sure which team #) bot had a lid on the front with a 120mm fan on top, they just opened the lid and their electronics board was sitting there, neatly wired and everything. They had some type of matting surrounding everything too. Their problem was lack of light, they didn't put any lights in their box. Our idea is basically the same, just make a portable battery tray that slides in under our electronics box, and add lighting and a false floor for wiring. The lights will be there to illuminate the cable sleeving (UV reactive ), and will have white cathodes there if we can't see enough with the UV lights. So the lights will only be seen when we "open the hood".

Originally Posted by Cowmankoza

it is to my understanding that any light can be used on the robot as long as, 1. it is hooked up to a fuse and wiring in safely, and 2. not interefering with another robots vision system (i.e. no green)

-Will definitely be hooked up to a fuse, and hopefully my wiring skills will be good enough . Will not use green whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Simon Strauss

The heat shrink and neon wire cover are both FIRST legal and good ideas. The fan should be aswell. I dont see what you will use the acoustic pad for and the usage dictates its legality as a potential fire hazard if too close to electronics. Aslong as those lights dont interfere with CMU, any other type of sensor or driver visability they should be aswell if wired correctly.

when in doubt refer to the FRC flow Chart http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ot,Rev%20G.pdf on page 19 and the inspection checklists


-Simon

-Thanks for reassuring me on that, I was pretty sure the heat shrink was fine, wasn't too sure about the wire cover. The acoustic padding was just a basic idea for the surrounding(we want it to be black, but I guess I could use plexi and just have a different sort of padding on the other side, eliminating the fire hazard.) It doesn't have to be acoustic padding, just wasn't sure where to look for that type of material.


-So far so good, thanks a bunch for the quick replies.

[IraJason]

Originally Posted by benhulett

-Will definitely be hooked up to a fuse, and hopefully my wiring skills will be good enough . Will not use green whatsoever.

Those cathodes shouldn't be that hard to wire in. I wound up putting connectors on mine and attaching them to a Spike. Just have it programmed to have that Spike turn on when you want it to and that should do it.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

OK guys, I do not believe that CCFL tubes on the robot pass the flow chart and would not have allowed them during the inspection process. Sorry, but should they break, the materials are hazardous and the power supply is 680 volts!
The super brite LED also would not pass as this device is likely to over drive the camera making it impossible to see other colors.
The lighted fan does pass inspection as long as it is 12 volts supplied from a 20 amp circuit breaker and does not pose a vision system threat. I have allowed them in the past. I believe that the ban on hard drives was based on the idea that this motor gave the team an advantage. I, however, would like to see this thought changed as a drive might make for an interesting application since single board computers obviously pass as custom circuit.

<R47> Additional electronic components for use on the ROBOT must be either COTS items, or assembled from COTS items.

Everyone uses tubing for a variety of purposes especially heatshrink. What it is used for may be disallowed during inspection so make sure your intended use fits the robot rule book.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

OK guys, I do not believe that CCFL tubes on the robot pass the flow chart and would not have allowed them during the inspection process. Sorry, but should they break, the materials are hazardous and the power supply is 680 volts!
The super brite LED also would not pass as this device is likely to over drive the camera making it impossible to see other colors.

I wasn't aware of the power supply voltage on the CCFLs--that would make me far more wary of allowing them. I would still wait on the implementation before banning the LED, though. An LED that may not pass inside this robot for letting out too much light may well pose no problem in this one.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

OK guys, I do not believe that CCFL tubes on the robot pass the flow chart and would not have allowed them during the inspection process. Sorry, but should they break, the materials are hazardous and the power supply is 680 volts!
The super brite LED also would not pass as this device is likely to over drive the camera making it impossible to see other colors.
The lighted fan does pass inspection as long as it is 12 volts supplied from a 20 amp circuit breaker and does not pose a vision system threat. I have allowed them in the past. I believe that the ban on hard drives was based on the idea that this motor gave the team an advantage. I, however, would like to see this thought changed as a drive might make for an interesting application since single board computers obviously pass as custom circuit.

<R47> Additional electronic components for use on the ROBOT must be either COTS items, or assembled from COTS items.

Everyone uses tubing for a variety of purposes especially heatshrink. What it is used for may be disallowed during inspection so make sure your intended use fits the robot rule book.

I have to disagree with you on a few points here:

1> While the ballast of the CCFL does boost the voltage to 680vdc, that is not against the rules, nor is it a safety hazard as long as the proper wiring / curcuit breakers are used.

2> Many items, on a robot, could be considered hazardous if broken. As long as the CCFL tube is intact, it is not hazardous materials. The key on this point is to ensure that it is well protected and that parts will not escape the robot (IE completely contained) should it break.

3> unless you place the 'super bright' LED directly in front of the camers, it will not have enough lumens to 'wash out' the CMU camera. If what you were saying was true then the 'stadium lights' would always wash out the cameras (instead of every once in a while) and cause them to never work because they are far brighter than a super bright LED.

JMHO.