[FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official

[gblake]

******NEWS FROM FIRST!!******


After two successful pilot seasons as the FIRST Vex Challenge, we are
pleased to announce that the intermediate program, now named the FIRST
Tech Challenge, is an official FIRST program. It joins our continuum of
FIRST programs with the Junior FIRST LEGO League, FIRST LEGO League, and
FIRST Robotics Competition. This program will be structured similarly to
our pilot seasons and will continue to target an audience between the
FIRST LEGO League and FIRST Robotics Competition both to serve as a
feeder program into the FIRST Robotics Competition and to bring FIRST to
new geographic areas.


The next season of the FIRST Tech Challenge will begin in September
2007, and planning is underway. Team registration is expected to be open
on or shortly after July 11, 2007. Details on tournaments and season
information will be provided as soon as it is available. Please check
the FIRST website at www.usfirst.org for periodic updates.

The FIRST Tech Challenge will continue to use the Vex Robotics Design
System for this coming season. After registration opens, FIRST will
make Vex kits available at a price that only registered FIRST Tech
Challenge teams will be able to access. Teams may also use their
existing kits from previous years' competitions. Things may change in the future, but for now the Vex Robotics Design System is the official tournament kit.

We are excited to launch this new FIRST program sure to engage a greater
number of students.


Darlene Pantaleo (This message from Darlene to the Virginia FVC/FTC community was posted in this thread by Blake)
FVC Affiliate Partner
(804) 745-2493

[KathieK]

Thank you for posting. I am glad to finally have some information to share with veteran teams as well as prospectives. The name change will present some challenges as we convert everything over this summer, but it gives us something to do during the off-season, right?

[Josh Adelson]

Does anyone here know why FIRST plans to move away from the Vex system in future years? I'm not complaining, just curious.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Josh Adelson

Does anyone here know why FIRST plans to move away from the Vex system in future years? I'm not complaining, just curious.

Read carefully - It says they might, not that they will. Keep your powder dry; but don't jump the gun. - Blake (Mr mixed metaphor) Ross

[Josh Adelson]

Sorry, Blake, I should have explained more fully. Today I received a forwarded email attributed to Paul Gudonis, President and Steve Chism, Senior Director of Programs, FIRST. An excerpt from that email says:

"Since FIRST is actively exploring the use of other robotics platforms of similar scale for the FIRST Tech Challenge for future seasons, new teams for the Fall 2007 Season need to recognize that the platform that they purchase now is unlikely to be utilized in future competitions."

This implies a very strong likelihood of moving away from the Vex platform so I was wondering if anyone knew why.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Josh Adelson

"Since FIRST is actively exploring the use of other robotics platforms of similar scale for the FIRST Tech Challenge for future seasons, new teams for the Fall 2007 Season need to recognize that the platform that they purchase now is unlikely to be utilized in future competitions."

OK - Thanks - Add me to the list of folks who are very curious about that subject.

[emmell]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

OK - Thanks - Add me to the list of folks who are very curious about that subject.

Me too!

Mannie Lowe, Georgia F[TV]C AP/Coordinator

[rswsmay]

Well I had heard rumors that this might be coming down the pipeline among other possible changes with just as much impact. Right now things are probably still pretty fluid in that nothing is set in stone for the long term. Just as changes were made with the FRC and FLL programs with the programming language and upgrades/improvements or wholesale changes to the control system, We should also expect that similar technology changes with be made to this program from time to time.

So.... I guess that means teams will probably limit their purchases to what they need for the upcoming competition season.

[billw]

I have no idea if any of the following actually apply, but they would be my first guesses for the relucatant embrace of VEX:

1. IFI is not receptive to FIRST suggestions for changes/improvements to the platform. RF might be one area that is vital to FIRST but not to IFI.

2. FIRST would like to see additional revenue sharing. This tactic certainly applies some public pressure.

3. IFI is moving in the direction of the hobbyist with its latest releases. This is contrary to the more "educational" vision of FIRST.

In any event, I am quite pleased that FIRST has at least set a course for the upcoming year. We can now start bringing others on board with some assurance that there will actually be a program. I was quite reluctant to do so prior to this announcement.

Bill Wiley
Coach, Vexy Things

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by billw

I have no idea if any of the following actually apply, but they would be my first guesses for the relucatant embrace of VEX:

1. IFI is not receptive to FIRST suggestions for changes/improvements to the platform. RF might be one area that is vital to FIRST but not to IFI.

I would find this one hard to believe. IFI has been very enthusiastic about improving Vex and other products USED by FIRST. IFI was extremely proactive about correcting this year's FRC radio issues. Even having staff on hand at every regional and every playing field at Atlanta. I haven't seen this level of commitment from other VENDORS. The recent advanced gear kits and large omni wheels released by IFI and the anouncement of additional sensors and products this summer shows a clear desire by IFI to improve their products.

Originally Posted by billw

2. FIRST would like to see additional revenue sharing. This tactic certainly applies some public pressure.

This could be possible, but is IFI being singled out from all the other VENDORS? I think that even if IFI thought an increase in their contribution to FIRST was unreasonable, the increase in sales as the program grows would still have to be considered by IFI. Any revenue sharing is also a part of business, and can usually be worked out in a private business-like manner if BOTH sides are willing to negotiate in good faith.

Originally Posted by billw

3. IFI is moving in the direction of the hobbyist with its latest releases. This is contrary to the more "educational" vision of FIRST.

Please get one important thing straight. IFI and FIRST are two completely different entities. IFI is a for profit corporation, FIRST is not. IFI spent a great deal of resources to develop Vex partly to help grow FIRST, but mainly to increase its own revenue. IFI then spent even more resources to buy the rights to Vex from RadioShack, something FIRST could have done, too. IFI needs to recoup these expenses, just as any corporation would, in a smart business-like way. IFI's foray into the hobbyist market is good business sense. Should we fault other vendors like IGUS, Fisher Price, LEGO, etc. for having commercial ventures?

Remember, without successful commercial ventures of any kind, who would be the sponsors of FIRST?

Originally Posted by billw

In any event, I am quite pleased that FIRST has at least set a course for the upcoming year. We can now start bringing others on board with some assurance that there will actually be a program. I was quite reluctant to do so prior to this announcement.

Bill Wiley
Coach, Vexy Things

I too, am glad FIRST has finally set a course for this year. HOWEVER, I am still EXTREMELY RELUCTANT to promote FTC to others. As well stated by others in this thread, FIRST is once again starting down a path to hurt its teams. It is clear that many schools have invested heavily in Vex and are not about to change products to stay involved in FIRST. This is bad for FIRST. Period.

This has been my biggest complaint with FIRST, since long before this current issue. FIRST is continually making changes which cost teams vital resources (money), for almost no good reason. Changing to keep pace with technology is one thing, but changing from a platform like Vex that is well supported by its vendor, robust in materials and resources, and well integrated with FRC, without any valid reason given is a waste which teams should NEVER have to endure.

I can not, and will not, in good conscience encourage new teams to get involved in FTC this year without giving them a serious warning. Since there is at least some minimal chance that anything and everything a rookie team purchases this year may be obsolete next year.

Perhaps FIRST is forgetting its reason for existing.... to inspire students through science and technology. Schools have always been reluctant to embrace new technologies because of costs and rapid obsolescence. For FIRST to reach every school, it MUST provide a stable yet progressive program which doesn't force schools with limited resources to reinvest money without seeing any benefit from one platform to another.

That is not only good business sense, its good non-profit sense. Schools were teaching technology before FIRST was formed, and will continue to teach technology with or without FIRST. As inspiring as FIRST is, schools and school boards can only look at the bottom line... money, not loyalty to FIRST.

[billw]

Obviously, there is some reason that FIRST is not wholeheartedly embracing VEX. Perhaps, as was noted in a related thread, that it is better not to speculate on the reasons. Unfortunately, I read that after I made my comments...

I do think the community would be well-served, however, if FIRST would clarify its position. This lack of openness will, as you note, make it more difficult for schools to use VEX (and possibly FTC) as a basis for course work.

Regarding the original "guesses:"

1. IFI is not receptive to FIRST suggestions for changes/improvements to the platform. RF might be one area that is vital to FIRST but not to IFI.

My point was that IFI is a "for profit" business (as you note), and they may view the cost/benefit of correcting the RF differently than FIRST. I could be entirely wrong. In fact, I dearly hope that I am: If the system develops a reputation for faulty RF, it will slow its adoption.

2. FIRST would like to see additional revenue sharing. This tactic certainly applies some public pressure.

The argument for increased revenue sharing was really only meant to plant a thought. I would be surprised if this could not be handled more effectively in a private manner as well.

3. IFI is moving in the direction of the hobbyist with its latest releases. This is contrary to the more "educational" vision of FIRST.

I totally understand that FIRST and IFI are separate organizations. It simply occurred to me that FIRST might prefer a platform that was targeted solely at education and not hobbyist/commercial uses. I agree that LEGO spans both markets and that FIRST seems happy to continue working with them. On the other hand, they may not have much say in the direction of LEGO and may want to avoid a similar fate with VEX.


All of the above may well be wrong, but as I attempt to understand the workings of the black-box called "FIRST," I need to start with some hypothesis. So, in spite of the very good suggestion to avoid speculation, do you have any idea why FIRST would adopt this position?

As for moving forward with VEX, a great deal of the cost has already been incurred in both hardware and experience. I will make it clear that any further investment may be short-lived, but I am only building out a team not a school system.

Schools were teaching technology before FIRST was formed, and will continue to teach technology with or without FIRST. As inspiring as FIRST is, schools and school boards can only look at the bottom line... money, not loyalty to FIRST.

After another season, VEX may have enough critical mass to continue on its own independent of a FIRST championship. The VEX platform hits a sweet spot for many, and I can easily envision an entirely separate organization sponsoring a VEX-only robotics competition.

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by rswsmay

Just as changes were made with the FRC and FLL programs with the programming language and upgrades/improvements or wholesale changes to the control system, We should also expect that similar technology changes with be made to this program from time to time.

True, but was a complete overhaul of a system made after only 2 years of using the system (Vex was released only 2 years and 3 months ago)? From all that I've heard, this Vex season was considered a "success"; I don't understand the desire switch to something completely new when you can take something that works pretty well and refine it, especially when the capabilities have not reached saturation, especially with the introduction of the new advanced gear kit.

It's my hope that if a new system is introduced for FTC, they would at least allow the use of the Vex system as one alternative in the competition. While teams that have more technical training, talent, and financial resources might consider a major system overhaul every 2 years a fun challenge, we are slow learners with limited resources. We've invested so much time and money in this system (collectively, our team spent over $400 in Vex parts over the past month alone), that if Vex were disallowed, I doubt that we would have the money or energy to move to a new platform next year, which would mean the end of FIRST for us. We know individuals and schools that have purchased Vex kits that are wavering on the edge of deciding whether to take the plunge of entering teams in high school robotics, and disallowing the Vex kits would push them away. Vex resources for rookies that have gradually been developed over the past 2 will become obsolete, with similar resource development for a new system 2 years behind. In short, the teams that have less money and technical support are the least resilient when it comes to major change and will suffer the most. It was my understanding that FTC/FVC was deliberately designed to serve teams with fewer resources, and disallowing the Vex kits seems to go against that goal.

Last year, the release of Mindstorms NXT meant the introduction of a new system for FLL (after 6 seasons of exclusively using the RCX), but FIRST guaranteed that the old RCX system would be allowed and that the game would be designed to make the RCX reasonably competitive for at least one, possibly more years.

Allowing Vex as one of several possible platforms would at least lessen the effects of a major system switch.

Yolande

[Kyle Love]

If they switch over "design systems" wouldn't that cause everyone to have to buy all new stuff, after collecting it after 3 years. That would seem kind of crappy to me, but if there is a way for another "design system" to be better, then I guess it would be worth it. But, regardless I will ALWAYS use VEX.

[rswsmay]

I can't say I disagree with anything stated here. All I can say from my perspective and from my experience in and out of the FIRST community is that..... $$$$$ makes the world go round. I'll bet anyone here a buck, that one way or another, $$$$ is at the core of this issue. Now, I'll just be like Forest Gump and tell ya that... "thats all I've got to say about that".

Now... I can say that some of us here in Georgia have made a decision to continue using the Vex platform for the foreseeable future. This discussion here in Georgia started back in the fall of last year prior to the progression of events this FVC season. This doesn't mean it will be a sanctioned FIRST event or any kind of program meant to steal any of their thunder. It simply means there are a lot of us that LIKE the VEX platform and are committed to utilizing it to keep students interested in technology through competitive robotics. The stated goal of having an event here once a month may be a bit ambitious. I certainly think it is to start out with. A more attainable goal for us to start out with may be once a quarter or twice a year in addition to the other FIRST sponsored events. In either case, there many teams that have a significant investment in the VEX kits, including my team with about 10 kits and a slew of add-ons from IFI. If IFI continues to promote the product, offer upgrades, add-on's, tech support, introduce new companion products, etc. Then many of us will continue to utilize what we have made a significant investment in. If they flounder in this area (speaking for me), eventually I'll drop them like a sack-a-potato's.

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

True, but was a complete overhaul of a system made after only 2 years of using the system (Vex was released only 2 years and 3 months ago)? From all that I've heard, this Vex season was considered a "success"; I don't understand the desire switch to something completely new when you can take something that works pretty well and refine it, especially when the capabilities have not reached saturation, especially with the introduction of the new advanced gear kit.

It's my hope that if a new system is introduced for FTC, they would at least allow the use of the Vex system as one alternative in the competition. While teams that have more technical training, talent, and financial resources might consider a major system overhaul every 2 years a fun challenge, we are slow learners with limited resources. We've invested so much time and money in this system (collectively, our team spent over $400 in Vex parts over the past month alone), that if Vex were disallowed, I doubt that we would have the money or energy to move to a new platform next year, which would mean the end of FIRST for us. We know individuals and schools that have purchased Vex kits that are wavering on the edge of deciding whether to take the plunge of entering teams in high school robotics, and disallowing the Vex kits would push them away. Vex resources for rookies that have gradually been developed over the past 2 will become obsolete, with similar resource development for a new system 2 years behind. In short, the teams that have less money and technical support are the least resilient when it comes to major change and will suffer the most. It was my understanding that FTC/FVC was deliberately designed to serve teams with fewer resources, and disallowing the Vex kits seems to go against that goal.

Last year, the release of Mindstorms NXT meant the introduction of a new system for FLL (after 6 seasons of exclusively using the RCX), but FIRST guaranteed that the old RCX system would be allowed and that the game would be designed to make the RCX reasonably competitive for at least one, possibly more years.

Allowing Vex as one of several possible platforms would at least lessen the effects of a major system switch.

Yolande

[Jared W]

last year FIRST promised they would use the same field for the upcoming 3 years of Vex competition..

so there is some guarantee there