**FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll

[Tottanka]

Greetings Teams:

FRC staff and volunteers are reviewing potential improvements to the practice day schedule. We would like to increase the throughput of teams practicing. Some teams find that working on their robot is more valuable than practicing. That leads to empty spots on the field and incomplete practice matches.

Please review the three options described below and detailed in the pdf file attached to the thread on the FIRST Forum. Review them with your team and vote for your preferred format. In order to vote, you must log in using your 2007 Q & A forum account and vote only once per team. Once your team has voted, you cannot change your vote. The forum will close on November 12, 2007 at 12:59pm EST.

Option 1: Status Quo
For details of how practice matches have been run in the past, please refer to Section 9.2.1 in the 2007 FRC Game Manual (FRC Game Manual website)
Option 2: Open Practice Followed by Option 3
There is no practice schedule for the first third of the day (open practice matches)
Teams line up and practice on a "first come first serve" basis
Teams may not occupy more than one spot in line or on the field
Open practice matches are one match only (less than five minutes total)
Open practice matches are for the first 1/3 of the day, Option 3 for the remaining 2/3 of the day
Option 3: Status Quo with Filler Line
Empty slots are filled, as needed, by teams who are ready to practice
Practice schedules are generated as before, w/ 10 minute practice match length
Filler line is limited to ~6 robots (dependent on venue space), additional teams must keep an eye on the line and line up when the last spot opens up
In order to wait in the filler line, you must have your robot and may not work on it while in line.
Hint: think about the singles line at the ski lift.
Thank you for your time and your input.

Go Teams!

[Tottanka]

And im gonna ahve to go wiht option 3.
Option is obvioulsy off.
Option 3 seems more challanging, and fun. 10 minutes games are awesome!

[lukevanoort]

I like option two a lot, but I think it might work poorly for larger regionals; hence, I would go with three.

[Molten]

I like option two. It is simpler and will allow for us to jump in when ever we get a modification of our robot finished. We won't have to have one person to keep track of the field. We really can't afford to have a person dedicated to such a trivial task. We are a small team and need every member available. However, I do like the idea of changing it a little. We only really made it to half of our practice matches last year due to design issues.

[Kirk]

Option 3 seems to the the fairest solution. Every team has the same number of minimum matches and if they want more they can wait in line for it.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Option 3 seems the best, but I'd really like to vote for a modification to it. Specifically, teams would be scheduled for n practices originally. Teams would be limited to n + x total practices, where x is determined based on regional team load etc. Once the team has reached n+x practices, the rest of their scheduled practices are mandatory byes.

The basic idea would be that teams fixing things etc would be missing matches early in the day, and at the end of the day everyone would be working, so there would be many many fewer missed practices. So the teams that were fixing things wouldn't really get much chance to make up for time they missed in the morning. By limiting the number of practices for teams that were getting extra practice in the morning, more spots would open up in the afternoon when the teams donating their morning spots would need them.

[Barry Bonzack]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Option 3 seems the best, but I'd really like to vote for a modification to it. Specifically, teams would be scheduled for n practices originally. Teams would be limited to n + x total practices, where x is determined based on regional team load etc. Once the team has reached n+x practices, the rest of their scheduled practices are mandatory byes.

The basic idea would be that teams fixing things etc would be missing matches early in the day, and at the end of the day everyone would be working, so there would be many many fewer missed practices. So the teams that were fixing things wouldn't really get much chance to make up for time they missed in the morning. By limiting the number of practices for teams that were getting extra practice in the morning, more spots would open up in the afternoon when the teams donating their morning spots would need them.

I see the reasoning behind this idea, Say teams are scheduled for 7 matches, but a max of 8 for the entire day is allowed. The team has their robot ready to go at the beginning of the day can fill early spots, a couple of their own, and theoretically be finished for the day by lunch time. After lunch, their scheduled matches become byes and teams that were not ready to go at the beginning of they day fill in the match from the filler line. This gives a better chance every team gets a near equal amount of practice without one team getting 10 matches, while another team only could make it to their last 2 scheduled matches.

However. I am in the belief that a team that has their robot best ready to go in the beginning of the morning made the best use of their six weeks. This time management skill should be rewarded by FIRST by receiving extra practice matches.

Pro to your suggestion: Option 2 could possibly be discrimination toward teams that are attending multiple regionals, say by their third regional they have all of the bugs worked out, while this same regional is another teams only regional.

I'm still in the catagory to give teams as many practices as possible. If they get out of a match and notice that the line is open for another team, they should be allowed to get back in line as many times as they wish. Great job for building a reliable robot...Only if Richard's suggestion is implemented and they have already passed inspection.

[EricH]

I'm going to go option 3, with inspection. I'm not going to say that passing should be required, but inspection must be started or at least attempted. An indicator would be needed to show which robots have started/attempted to start and which have not, though. (Reason: Why make robots wait if the delay in starting inspection is not their fault?)

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

I am in the belief that a team that has their robot best ready to go in the beginning of the morning made the best use of their six weeks. This time management skill should be rewarded by FIRST by receiving extra practice matches.

Interesting... I might say that a team who shows up completely ready to go has squandered the last few hours they had to work on their robot...

Our team, for instance, nearly always shows up ready for practice, but not ready to inspect. We often still have to put finishing touches on, like installing bumpers, signage, drilling speed holes, etc. Why waste time during the build season doing these things if I can do them on practice day (and still be able to practice)?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

I see the reasoning behind this idea, Say teams are scheduled for 7 matches, but a max of 8 for the entire day is allowed. The team has their robot ready to go at the beginning of the day can fill early spots, a couple of their own, and theoretically be finished for the day by lunch time. After lunch, their scheduled matches become byes and teams that were not ready to go at the beginning of they day fill in the match from the filler line. This gives a better chance every team gets a near equal amount of practice without one team getting 10 matches, while another team only could make it to their last 2 scheduled matches.

However. I am in the belief that a team that has their robot best ready to go in the beginning of the morning made the best use of their six weeks. This time management skill should be rewarded by FIRST by receiving extra practice matches.

My suggestion was simply to even things out slightly. I've seen more than a few posters in this thread suggesting that option 3 will let teams that are ready get extra practice in the mornings, and the morning teams will get to make up for lost time in the afternoon, but that's simply not going to be the case, since there's going to be a flood of teams in the Fill Line in the afternoon. I understand the sentiment for rewarding teams that "made the most of their six weeks", but I don't entirely agree with it. Especially because some of those teams will inevitably be teams with little or no offense capabilities who are finished and ready to practice simply because there's not much to their robot but defense. The sad thing is that any team that's missing tons of matches in the morning will really, really need extra matches in the afternoon, but they're just not going to be there. The only real way for this to work out in favor of teams missing matches in the morning is if the other teams either voluntarily give up matches in the afternoon or if they're forced to do so.

[cbale2000]

I'm all for option 3 but I'd like to throw something out there regarding the whole inspection for extra practice bit...


Has anyone considered that teams having problems with their robots might actually need more practice time to help them work out the bugs than a team who's robot is working perfectly?

I know there have been plenty of times for my team where it would have been nice to have a few more practice rounds to identify and fix problems, not just to let the drivers practice. I'm not saying we should prevent the teams that are ready to practice more, but I don't think we should exclude teams that can't pass inspection either.


Just a thought.




Of course, you still have the inspection pile up at the end of the day... maybe we aught to give out cookies to the teams that get inspected the earliest or something

[Mike Betts]

All,

First of all, a robot does not have to be working perfectly to go through inspection. Many teams continue to modify their robots throughout the competition and many ask for a re-inspection on Friday or Saturday.

An inspection without bumpers or signs would still cover 99% of the "important" stuff. Even an inspection with entire subsystems missing would (1) allow greater safety for all involved on practice day and (2) help inspectors to identify teams needing help.

Putting on my team mentor hat for a moment:

If option 3 is adopted without requiring inspection, there is no way that I would allow my team to attempt inspection until there is absolutely no chance that an extra practice could be procured. Practice time is that valuable for a competitive edge.

Now putting on my head inspector's hat:

(Once again, if option 3 is adopted without requiring inspection) The prospect of having all the teams at a regional wait until 5PM to be inspected is a disaster in the making and virtually guarantees that many teams (especially rookies and teams needing extra help) will not be able to compete in their first match on Friday morning.

Given the choice of a few unfilled practice slots and teams missing matches on Friday, I cannot support option 3 without modification and would be forced to say that we must stay with option 1.

Please think about it...

Regards,

Mike

[Kevin Sevcik]

Ok, it's not that I'm completely stuck on my idea or anything, but if you limit a team's practice matches and they run out mid afternoon, then they'd have plenty of time to finish inspection at that point....

[Richard Wallace]

I'd vote for Option 3 with one modification: to enter the Filler Line your robot must have completed inspection and received its sticker.

I strongly dislike Option 2 because of the traffic flow problem it would create at many regional venues.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

I like Option 3. I've seen forms of it work at off-seasons and everyone seems to like it.
While on the subject of practice matches, I'd also like FIRST to allow them to actually be practice. If a robot gets stuck, breaks, needs adjusting, etc. while on the field, a team member or two should be allowed to go on the field briefly to aid the robot, as long as its safe to do so.
Numerous times I've seen team members stopped from going on the field when it was clearly safe to do so.
Basically, don't run practice matches like normal matches. Give teams more freedom on the field.