Bumpers On Sale for $50 only! FROM TEAM 2070

[losedemnoodles]

Hey I'm sure many teams are very busy and bumpers are the last things on their minds! Well, Team 2070 has a solution ---Team 2070 will make your bumpers for $50 only!! Just give us your team number, location, bumper dimensions, and color of choice for the bumper. We'll be more than happy to meet your expectations and such!! So, just email jparkteach@gmail.com with your request!!! Thanks!

[aksimhal]

Not to be critical or anything, but is this legal?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by aksimhal

Not to be critical or anything, but is this legal?

If they qualify as a vendor, I'd say yes.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by EricH

If they qualify as a vendor, I'd say yes.

To qualify as a vendor they have to have a registered business with a Federal Tax Identification number. It also must be completely separable from the team (individuals may overlap, but business and activities may not).

It is likely that neither of these hold true in this case.

Full definition of a vendor including the above mentioned requirements can be found on page 6 of section 8 of the manual.

[DB9]

This is crazy i wanna buy some right now in every color of the rainbow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ok now seriously, all of you who are worried if this is legal or not, don't. It's legal until someone tells them it's not so as long as i'm concerned this shouldn't be a big deal.

besides, who here really wants to make bumpers...just buy them

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DB9

ok now seriously, all of you who are worried if this is legal or not, don't. It's legal until someone tells them it's not so as long as i'm concerned this shouldn't be a big deal.

That's the issue we have... We are concerned that this may violate rules.

These bumpers aren't COTS (definition of COTS), therefore, they are fabricated items. The problem comes up when you realize that the definition of fabricated item implies that the team builds it.

As your team would probably not be counted as a sponsor, the teams who buy these bumpers would have to account for both materials and labor in their cost accounting. (cost accounting rules)

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DB9

This is crazy i wanna buy some right now in every color of the rainbow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ok now seriously, all of you who are worried if this is legal or not, don't. It's legal until someone tells them it's not so as long as i'm concerned this shouldn't be a big deal.

besides, who here really wants to make bumpers...just buy them

Many of us here attempt to follow all of the rules including those that are difficult or impossible to actually enforce at the competition such as the "work before build season" rule. Anyone who posted here about whether this is legal or not almost certainly did not do so to burst the bubble of Team 2070 or to deny them of money. They did so in order to save Team 2070 and any teams that may think of purchasing from them from hassle down the road.

If you want to be sure whether it is legal or not, as usual ask the Q&A. My guess is the answer will be that if you meet all the qualifications of a vendor as outlined on page 6 of section 8 you're fine, otherwise it's probably not legal.

EDITED: Rereading the relevant sections for a third time, it looks like this may be legal provided the teams receiving the bumpers account for materials and labor as Eric noted (the $50 may include this). As noted above I would go to the Q&A before taking any orders or have a plan if it is decided it is illegal.

I don't think anyone here is making it a "big deal". In fact, we're trying to prevent it from being a big deal.

EDIT: I've never noticed before when reading the fabricated items definition that fabricated items may be "conjured" into the final form used on the robot. Now I just need to find a sorcerer.....

[Molten]

Anyone buying them could make whoever makes them honorary members. As far as I know, there is nothing against a person being on 50 different teams. Outrageous as it may be, this may be a viable solution to this overly confused drama. Also, perhaps they sold them over eBay?

Before I get a load of complaints, the above is my weird way of pointing out a loophole as a joke. I advice against anyone actually using this. Besides, the bumpers are not to hard to make. Just remember, it is easier to follow a rule then it is to find a way around it.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Molten

Anyone buying them could make whoever makes them honorary members. As far as I know, there is nothing against a person being on 50 different teams. Outrageous as it may be, this may be a viable solution to this overly confused drama. Also, perhaps they sold them over eBay?

Before I get a load of complaints, the above is my weird way of pointing out a loophole as a joke. I advice against anyone actually using this. Besides, the bumpers are not to hard to make. Just remember, it is easier to follow a rule then it is to find a way around it.

Remember, a part must still be commercially available from a source that qualifies as a vendor (and listed on the BOM at the price from that vendor) to purchase it from eBay. A part being on eBay does not make it legal COTS or make the price valid to list on the BOM as eBay does not qualify as a vendor.

[GaryVoshol]

One other qualification to be a vendor is to have sufficient production capacity to cover orders if several hundred teams decide to buy.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Molten

Anyone buying them could make whoever makes them honorary members. As far as I know, there is nothing against a person being on 50 different teams. Outrageous as it may be, this may be a viable solution to this overly confused drama. Also, perhaps they sold them over eBay?

Before I get a load of complaints, the above is my weird way of pointing out a loophole as a joke. I advice against anyone actually using this. Besides, the bumpers are not to hard to make. Just remember, it is easier to follow a rule then it is to find a way around it.

Actually, there is a rule against a person being on 50 different teams. Or to be more precise, there is a rule that says a student may only be on one team. That "loophole" was closed by FIRST back in the fall.

-dave


.

[jgannon]

I'm thinking that this would be allowed under whatever justifications legalize collaboration... that is a clear-cut case where one team is allowed to use fabricated parts that were fabricated by another. I don't know why the exchange of money would make it any different. In any case, I'm curious to see how this plays out. We bought the on-board autonomous mode switch manufactured by team 1629 last year, and as far as I can tell, the vendor rules have not changed since then... I'm hoping that wasn't a violation of the rules.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by jgannon

I'm thinking that this would be allowed under whatever justifications legalize collaboration... that is a clear-cut case where one team is allowed to use fabricated parts that were fabricated by another. I don't know why the exchange of money would make it any different. In any case, I'm curious to see how this plays out. We bought the on-board autonomous mode switch manufactured by team 1629 last year, and as far as I can tell, the vendor rules have not changed since then... I'm hoping that wasn't a violation of the rules.

In my mind, the exchange of funds makes all the difference in the world. As soon as you start paying for the service, there is no longer any possibility of claiming it is just a collaborative relationship between the two organizations. It is now a business relationship, based on an exchange of funds for services rendered. There is now an implicit contract between the two organizations, and expectations of performance on both sides. In the real world a partner organization and a vendor are treated differently, and the expectations are different. Within the FIRST realm, the same should hold true.

-dave



.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by dlavery

In my mind, the exchange of funds makes all the difference in the world.

I wasn't saying that there is no difference in a philosophical sense... I was speaking with respect to the 2008 FRC rules. The current rules make no provisions for the legality of a fabricated part to be determined by whether or not you paid for it (so long as the fair market value is less than $400).

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

I agree that this is an awesome idea for fundraising IF it is allowable by FIRST. There is always the team Q&A as a resource. Remember, if you sell other teams bumpers and they are deemed illegal, they are out $50 and have to somehow make some up at competition anyways. It's a great idea but the problems that you could bring to other teams would lead me to believe you should consult the FIRST Q&A before taking any orders.