Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

[skippy178]

What is the feeling about teams who compete at their "home" regional and then go on to compete at other regionals (some nearby, and others far away) ?

FIRST espouses "gracious professionalism", yet as I listened to the Championship webcast, I was amazed at the number of top teams who had won multiple awards at several regionals leading to Atlanta.

Some rookie teams struggle just to field a robot, yet there are veteran teams who are well-resourced and with deep pockets, who are travelling the countryside and beating the local talent on their home turf. What does this really say about the FIRST competition system ?

Does this REALLY encourage new teams to come back again next year when the out-of-towners take all the prestigious awards, and deny the locals a chance to go to Atlanta ?

The more I think about this, the more I keep wishing for FIRST to take some proactive steps to limit teams to entering their "home" regional event (the closest within their region, or if two are equally close, then they must nominate one as the home event) to qualify for Atlanta, and if they enter other "away" regionals, then they can compete, but are not eligible for moving into the elimination rounds, and that goes to the local teams instead.

I'm interested to know what others think about this.

Cheers

J

[BigJ]

This same topic has been made 2 or 3 times this season already, and I think they all had devolved into locked flame-wars.

Teams that do great are just role models, IMO. I know our team strives to be as awesome as many of the "big teams".

EDIT: As far as the "home regional" thing, then realize that certain regionals would be pretty stacked, and the Championship might be a little askew.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by BigJ

This same topic has been made 2 or 3 times this season already, and I think they all had devolved into locked flame-wars.

Teams that do great are just role models, IMO. I know our team strives to be as awesome as many of the "big teams".

EDIT: As far as the "home regional" thing, then realize that certain regionals would be pretty stacked, and the Championship might be a little askew.

I agree this issue was covered pretty well here:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...le+regional s

[Koko Ed]

If they can afford it there is no reason why FIRST should legislate where teams compete or how many times they compete.
It's just senseless for them to do so.

[Pavan Dave]

Define regional and you have my answer. Change the name, it is very misleading. As for actually competing in qualifying events, I think a reasonable cap needs to be established either by the community (which seems to be 2-3) or by FIRST which is currently 6.

[Akash Rastogi]

We always do our home regional even if we are not determined to win in Trenton. After that we are known to go down south somewhere (eg: Palmetto, Chesapeake). And we love going there. So what exactly should be stopping teams from going if say..they are finalists one place and then decide to go somewhere else because they know they will have improved and win?

[Storcky]

After 6 weeks of such hard work, our team decides that two regionals are more rewarding than one. It means that our students must do extra work for us to go, but once we get there it's amazing and we get to make friends with a lot of new teams. Last year, for instance, we were the only team attending both the Chesapeake regional and the Pittsburgh regional, so we never competed with or against the same robot. Attending two regionals also spreads our image to the community. Instead of only being listed in the paper once, we are listed at least three times: once at the end of build season and once after each competition.

[Zyik]

Each regional a team attends has a greater chance of inspiring them and teaching them something. Why on Earth would you want to limit that?

[skippy178]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Each regional a team attends has a greater chance of inspiring them and teaching them something. Why on Earth would you want to limit that?

I'm not against "teaching". I am against the idea that a well-resourced team with (relatively) massive amounts of sponsorship funding, mentors and facilities can travel around squashing the "little guys", who are the new rookie teams that Dean Kamen and others so desparately want to attract to this competition.

Whether you realised it or not, you saw it happen this weekend in Atlanta, where the highest ever team number to be a Championship Winner in the finals alliance was team 1114. That means there are over half the teams with numbers above that who have NEVER been to that dizzying level.

Looking at

http://www2.usfirst.org/2008comp/eve...in/awards.html

the Rookie awards were for teams 2352 and 2599, who are 1200+ team numbers AFTER those in the Winners alliance. How many years will it be before we see those teams being part of the winning alliances ?

J

[sdcantrell56]

What do team numbers have to do with the winning alliance on einstein and how many regionals a team attends. There were plenty of rookie bots at the championship, they were simply not good enough to make it to einstein or for the most part the eliminations of the divisions either. The teams with large budgets attending and winning multiple regionals has nothing to do with the lack of rookie teams on einstein.

[BigJ]

My main point is that a team competing in multiple regionals shouldn't be able to take home awards everywhere they go just because they have the $$$ to do so, and at the expense of the smaller-budget teams.

I think the problem is more that there are teams that struggle just to make it to one regional and other can afford to go to as many as they want where ever they want.

If you look at teams that travel across the country, their robots are high machined and well built. This is because they have better resources than other teams, more machines, more material, and more money and time to prototype (time spent fundraising for other teams can be spent designing and making parts). So their bot are going to preform well because of the time and money put into them. Which means that at competitions they are going to win.
...
Also keep in mind that these team didn't go to 2+ regionals then they would have an extra 15k to spend in entry fees a travel, (more in some cases). Are they going to donate this to other teams, maybe but more likely they are going to spend it to make their Robot better. Which means they are only going to increase their advantage over the rest of the field.

The teams that have all this money to go places to win awards probably take initiative to get more sponsors for that money, and should be seen as examples on working to get more sponsors! Ask somebody from their teams. This is FIRST. I'm sure anyone would give pointers or forward you to someone who will.

Also, the judges don't give out awards for money. They give out awards for hard work and effort. Every team should and can put up the effort to make the judge's job that much harder. That's what FIRST is about!

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by BigJ

The teams that have all this money to go places to win awards probably take initiative to get more sponsors for that money, and should be seen as examples on working to get more sponsors! Ask somebody from their teams. This is FIRST. I'm sure anyone would give pointers or forward you to someone who will.

Also, the judges don't give out awards for money. They give out awards for hard work and effort. Every team should and can put up the effort to make the judge's job that much harder. That's what FIRST is about!

*my entrance into this hot topic*

In our rookie year, we attended two regionals, and the championships. We won the Rookie All-star award and the Website Design award. We had 4 major corporate sponsors, and a world-class robot, completely designed and built by students with guidance from our fine mentors, teachers, and parents. Our team's image, logo, and mission was clearly displayed and well known everywhere we went. We partnered with a deaf school to reach across disability lines to spread the message of FIRST to everyone.

How did we do it?

We had a set of awesome parents, and awesome teachers, who were determined to have an awesome robotics team. With careful planning, we were able to find the corporate sponsors we needed to do everything that we did. We found the mentors that we needed to help with the design process of our robot. We spent the time planning and preparing to work with students from the deaf school. We have some VERY determined individuals on our team that made all of this possible.

Their work would be in vein, and would be partially nullified if we were not allowed to compete in multiple regionals.


Imagine the U.S. only being allowed to compete in ONE track event at the Olympics, because it would be unfair to have multiple shots at a track medal.

-Jacob, Team 1991

[waialua359]

Sorry for being blunt, but life isn't fair and most teams dont just inherit an unfair advantage. They work for it.
I think as a Hawaii participant even from one of the most remote places on our island, we've had to overcome a lot of hurdles and challenges just to get where we are, 9 years and counting. Its been a roller coaster ride.
The fact that so many "excellent" teams came to our regional, winning many of the awards, didnt outweigh the positives of what they brought to our 21 rookie teams this year. The proof is when these "mainland" teams had nothing but nice things to say and shared whatever questions and information that the new "rookies" wanted to know.

Embrace the challenge, dont shoot it down.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Sorry for being blunt, but life isn't fair and most teams dont just inherit an unfair advantage. They work for it.
I think as a Hawaii participant even from one of the most remote places on our island, we've had to overcome a lot of hurdles and challenges just to get where we are, 9 years and counting. Its been a roller coaster ride.
The fact that so many "excellent" teams came to our regional, winning many of the awards, didnt outweigh the positives of what they brought to our 21 rookie teams this year. The proof is when these "mainland" teams had nothing but nice things to say and shared whatever questions and information that the new "rookies" wanted to know.

Embrace the challenge, dont shoot it down.

Kudos, I was just going to point out your team to answer this one

[Valley Raider]

Originally Posted by skippy178

the Rookie awards were for teams 2352 and 2599, who are 1200+ team numbers AFTER those in the Winners alliance. How many years will it be before we see those teams being part of the winning alliances ?

J

i would like to point out that 254 has won like 20 regionals in their history and has never won nationals. But there picked every year because they have established themselves. Teams in the 2000's need to prove that their robot isn't going to brake and leave the alliance with a scoring robot. The first time you team qualifies for nationals they aren't very likely to win because they haven't prove themselves at the national level. Three years ago their was only one team over 1000 in the Finals? this year there was 1114, 1124, 1024, and some others which I forget (sorry).

The point is that teams in the 2000's have to prove themselves by beating these top teams before they are going to be selected. They need to do this first a the regional level and then at nationals. Note 1114 did this. They have won multiple regionals the past few year. Teams need to earn there spot by beating the best teams, so I don't see the point in preventing the best teams from competing, and thus allowing other teams the chance to prove their worth.