Last year's kit frame

[GaryVoshol]

Since to be able to use last year's kit frame you had to fabricate it (cut it to length), it would not be allowed on this year's robot per rule <R33>. "FABRICATED ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions shall not be used on ROBOTS in the 2009 competition."

IFI still has the old kitbot frame on their website, so it could be purchased and used this year. I'd suggest any team doing so have a receipt available for inspectors.

[Chuck Glick]

I don't believe a receipt is totally necessary. You are allowed to use a previous year's kitbot frame IF is composed of parts that are still available from the companies that provided them. These parts would just need to be properly spec'd and accounted for on the teams BOM (Bill of Materials, for you rookies ).
HOWEVER, parts from previous years kits that are no longer commercially available to all teams OR are not legal by all rules that pertain to the robot may NOT be used.

Hope that clears some things up.

EDIT:

For anyone trying to find part numbers or prices of previous year kit parts link is below.

http://ifirobotics.com/kitbot.shtml

[ChuckDickerson]

Also, no where in the rules does it say COTS parts have to be purchased after any particular time (for example Kickoff). We have one complete, unused KitBot and most of the parts for a second one that have been purchased separately at various times over the past 3 years. I don't find any rule stating that we can't use the old KitBot materials even from 3 years ago as long as we haven't cut/modified them (fabricated) and IFI is now still selling them after Kickoff (as COTS) so that any team could buy the same if they wanted to. We would, of course, have to declare the current purchase cost on our cost accounting/BoM at inspection but nothing I have read limits when the purchase has to have occured. No team buys all new raw stock each year and throws out all their unused aluminum/plastic/etc. left over from the previous year so why should the KitBot be any different? In fact, as far as I can tell a veteran team that didn't use their issued KitBot from some previous year that say just stuck the box on the shelf and built a custom frame that year would be perfectly legal to pull that old IFI KitBot box off the shelf and use it this year if they wanted to as long as they accounted for it in their cost analysis.

If it is FIRST's intent to not allow teams to use the IFI KitBot this year they better hurry up and define that in the rules. If they did I think it would be rather un-GP of FIRST to single out one specific COTS part from one specific vendor and make it illegal. It would also further add to the rumors regarding the IFI/FIRST split.

This is sort of why I was asking the questions I did in this thread. Both the AndyMArk C-Base and the IFI KitBot retail for ~$190. Both are basically functionally the same. Why come out with something new if it isn't better or cheaper? FIRST has to have a reason but why?

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

This is sort of why I was asking the questions I did in this thread. Both the AndyMArk C-Base and the IFI KitBot retail for ~$190. Both are basically functionally the same. Why come out with something new if it isn't better or cheaper? FIRST has to have a reason or but why?

In case you hadn't noticed by now, FIRST has cut a lot of ties with IFI over the past year alone (control system being the major change).
Not completely of course, as we can still use the IFI Victor's (as I recall from the Kickoff) for the control system, & you are certainly allowed to buy things from IFI as long as they meet requirements set in place by FIRST & the manual just like any other supplier of compents, since they are in fact a supplier of COTS items, but in the future I expect a lot less IFI products included in the kit or none at all.
This chassis this year is just one of them.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

In case you hadn't noticed by now, FIRST has cut a lot of ties with IFI over the past year alone (control system being the major change).
Not completely of course, as we can still use the IFI Victor's (as I recall from the Kickoff) for the control system, & you are certainly allowed to buy things from IFI as long as they meet requirements set in place by FIRST & the manual just like any other supplier of compents, since they are in fact a supplier of COTS items, but in the future I expect a lot less IFI products included in the kit or none at all.
This chassis this year is just one of them.

Yep, agreed. What I meant was why change what isn't broken just for the sake of change? If, for example, the new AM C-Base was a lot lighter or cheaper than the IFI KitBot then great I understand but if it isn't then why? If FIRST some how intends for us to not be able to use the IFI KitBot and specifically outlaws it then that will come across (to me at least) as just plain mean and spiteful toward IFI who has always been a loyal supported of FIRST as far as I have ever seen.

[GaryVoshol]

An update from the GDC: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11519

Last year's kit frame is considered custom-made for FRC 2008, so cannot be used. You'd have to buy a new IFI kitbot to use it this year.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

An update from the GDC: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11519

Last year's kit frame is considered custom-made for FRC 2008, so cannot be used. You'd have to buy a new IFI kitbot to use it this year.

I hope for the GDC's sake there is a difference between what was in the 2008 kit and what is available here. If not the GDC has stooped to a new low in getting involved with FIRST politics.

[JVN]

Food for thought:
The one in the KOP last year was identical to the one we sold last year and is identical to the one we're selling now.

-John

[TD78]

Is it just me, or is it weird that that link goes to the 2008 Q&A Response Forum, as opposed to the 2009 Q&A Response Forum?

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by RollinTDollin

Is it just me, or is it weird that that link goes to the 2008 Q&A Response Forum, as opposed to the 2009 Q&A Response Forum?

Looks like people are posting 2009 questions accidentally under the 2008 forums.
(Just look at the dates of the posts for any clarification.)
I agree that is completely confusing, & that FIRST should lock all 2008 forums at this point!

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by JVN

Food for thought:
The one in the KOP last year was identical to the one we sold last year and is identical to the one we're selling now.

-John

Then I vehemently disagree with the GDC's ruling.

On the plus side, as far as I know there is no way to "carbon date" an aluminum alloy to figure out when it was made...

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Abwehr

Then I vehemently disagree with the GDC's ruling.

On the plus side, as far as I know there is no way to "carbon date" an aluminum alloy...

It'a not illegal (as a COTS item) so that just means you have to purchase it this year.
This is consistent, but the comment from the GDC that is was "custom" is not correct as they stated it apparently going by John's inside info.

Bottom line: It can still be used. Just buy it this year, have proof if necessary with a dated receipt (I haven't looked at the cost & "date purchased" accounting rules completely yet to be honest) & be good to go.

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

I hope for the GDC's sake there is a difference between what was in the 2008 kit and what is available here. If not the GDC has stooped to a new low in getting involved with FIRST politics.

If anything, they are giving teams the call to spend money this year on an IFI component if they wish to, so in essence, it's not really getting into politics in the way one would think they would be (by denying teams to use anything IFI related) if that's the accusation, but rather it's treating IFI as any other supplier & telling teams to buy things from them this year, rather than get a "freebie" by using what you have lying around the shop from previous years.

Then again, there is also the rules in place that FIRST says "we don't care if you don't pay anything at all for a component, it just has to be accounted for in your robot budget as the price it would be off the shelf if you were to purchase it." (with the usual other restrictions in place following the flowchart of course)

So.. technically, you could "find" & get a 2008/2009 chassis "donated to your team" from in your team closet from last year for free, but still account for it for the price it would cost you this year if you were to buy it from IFI.

Confused yet?? I know I am slightly. lol

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

It'a not illegal (as a COTS item) so that just means you have to purchase it this year.
This is consistent, but the comment from the GDC that is was "custom" is not correct as they stated it apparently going by John's inside info.

Bottom line: It can still be used. Just buy it this year, have proof if necessary with a dated receipt (I haven't looked at the cost & "date purchased" accounting rules yet to be honest) & be good to go.

What disturbs me isnt the fact that it can still be used...its the fact that according to JVN (who I'd say is an incredibly reliable source...) the kit frame has not changed since it was put in the KOP in 2008.

I am interested to see what parts are custom from 2008...edited to not offend anyone, as that was not the original intent of my post

[jgannon]

If John's claim is true, then a mint-condition IFI chassis kit from the 2008 KOP would unequivocally satisfy the parts use flowchart and all related rules. My understanding of the official rules hierarchy is that it takes more than just a Q&A response to change that. I can't speak to any of FIRST's reasons or intents, but I hope that they will either clarify which components of the kitbot were custom to the 2008 KOP (thus refuting John's claim), rescind the Q&A response, or issue an update amending the rules to specifically outlaw kitbots that came in old kits.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

What disturbs me isnt the fact that it can still be used...its the fact that according to JVN (who I'd say is an incredibly reliable source...) the kit frame has not changed since it was put in the KOP in 2008.

It seems very sneaky and backhanded that the GDC states that it was custom made in 2008....

That is enough. If you have a legitimate, constructive comment regarding the ruling, then post it to the Q&A forums and get a legitimate, constructive response. The insults are totally unnecessary.



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