GDC you have failed us.

[swamp_child]

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true. While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.
As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year). Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams.
I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies.

[neoshaakti]

Okay well if it is your opinion that the GDC have not leveled the playing field, then all you can really refute is the idea that they did since in essence, if they didn't the playing field would be the same as last year, which would be unleveled...and you would then be posting the same post except without the claim the GDC sold us this "leveled playing ground."

Just play the game, trust me you'll enjoy yourself more thinking about all the crazy ways your robot can approach the game.

Hopefully this makes sense

[bduddy]

(Rant copied and pasted from another topic-I've been ranting quite a bit lately, forgive me for recycling )

The obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and the Brabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eke out any improvement, F1 teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds.

Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those.

[NoodleKnight]

Originally Posted by bduddy

(Rant copied and pasted from another topic-I've been ranting quite a bit lately, forgive me for recycling )

The obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and the Brabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eke out any improvement, F1 teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds.

Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those.

Sorry for the big quote, but insomnia and lack of sleep has gotten to me and I can't be bothered to edit. Proper punctuation and grammar is already hard enough

I have to say, I quite like this year's game. Makes me wish I still was in FIRST, but well, 3 years into college and I don't even have time to help mentor a team. You do know the changes in F1 were done to help level the playing field for new teams? Same reason why WRC went to S2000 rules. Reduce cost and complexity for new teams to emerge. Same concept with the 2009 game.
I do agree with you about the limiting of innovation, but only for motorsports. That's a whole story in itself, but with FIRST it's totally different. In the past FIRST has only really banned specific innovations because it's not safe or it's causing problems (like the use of filecards for traction in 2002, and the entanglement rule).
It's true that racing teams have to spend countless hours on engine dynos and windtunnels to extract milliseconds off of lap times, but that's because motorsports technology is quite advanced and has reached a peak. The competition has been the same for year on end, you race a car around a track. With most large technological innovations already discovered, it's going to take a lot of work to produce a significantly less amount of achievement... basically technological advancement is reaching the peak of it's curve where more work equals less result.
But it's different with FIRST, the game changes every year. More so with this year, as mentioned above they've pretty much wiped the slate clean. If anything this competition will give rookie teams more of a chance to catch up. For years there has been more or less a "right" way to build a drivetrain (take 254 for example, or I guess what's called the west coast drivetrain). That 6wd platform has been serving many teams well, which is great. But this game has nerfed it, quite a bit. I can see making some people unhappy because well, now they have to redesign their drivetrain. But that's part of the challenge right? Everyone else has to redesign their drivetrain, no one has the advantage of a knowing how to build and execute a battle hardened system, so I see that as lessening the advantage gap between the veteran teams and the rookie teams.
It's undeniable that veteran teams will always have some advantage over a rookie team, but this applies everywhere. Just be happy that this is FIRST, where veteran teams are willing to help rookie teams that ask for help. In professional motorsports it's not as nice.

Ultimately, in my opinion. It's great that FIRST has managed to close the gap between this advantage without stomping on too many people's toes. I noticed that someone mentioned in a different thread about a lack of defense. Defense is fun alright, being destructive in a legitimate way is always entertaining but well, that's not very challenging, haha. Defense isn't really gone, I think FIRST has just been doing what they've been trying to do and make it less of a contact-ordeal and more of a strategic defense ordeal.

Lastly I don't really see the significant advantage with a swerve drive system, especially in the video posted. The competition trailer has fixed wheels for starters, along with a lot more weight. The threads posting about tank steering having problems is only an advisory that using old methods is no longer going to cut it, goes back to what I tried to explain above. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Anyways wow that was a big mess, sorry... For those who managed to read through it all I applaud you. For those who managed to read and understand it... well I guess I can give you a pat on the back.

[yodameister]

While it is true the veterans may have some advantages, I don't think you can discount rookie teams. This is a unique time for FIRST as most teams have not had early access to the control system and the playing field is quite the equalizer. I think you will be surprised by the success of many rookies and surprised by the lack of success from veteran teams. I guess what I am trying to say, is most teams (rookie and vet) are on pretty equal footing.

[Booksy]

Originally Posted by yodameister

While it is true the veterans may have some advantages, I don't think you can discount rookie teams. This is a unique time for FIRST as most teams have not had early access to the control system and the playing field is quite the equalizer.

Some (most? i don't know) Canadians still don't have theirs. It's going to cost us $250 dollars to get it released, and we probably won't even get it this week.

On topic, I like the game, and think it puts us all at a disadvantage to a robot with traction wheels, but since no robots will have traction wheels, I think were all good. Rookie teams do not have any more of a disadvantage than other years. They have less IMO, but to each his own.

[swamp_child]

I should also say, I loved this game, until about 4:30 today...
I dont think the GDC completely failed, because this is certainly a challenging game, however they did not level the playing field.

[Pavan Dave]

Honestly you need to chill. I was an impatient student who thought the same way about past games and it took me until recently to come to many realizations that the GDC probably came to when they made their executive decisions to go with the games Aim High, Rack'n'Roll, and Overdrive. There is always more than meets the eye. They have their reasons.

The WildStang movie proves nothing to be honest. You need to look at the big picture. Was there a 40lbs mass on the trolley that the crab was dragging? There are other drive trains that can do similar things WITH the moon wheels. Just think outside the box but inside the 28" X 38" X 60" rectangular prism and you may come up with a solution.

Think about the playing field on many levels. Software, Strategy, Hardware, etc. Then you may come to the conclusion that there is a big picture. What is the big picture? Hell, not even I know. But when I figure out, I'll be sure to let you know. It took me 2 years for Rack'n'Roll so give me your email and I'll fill you in as soon as I "get it".

Pavan Dave

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true.

To a point, they have. You're never going to get the playing field completely level, but throwing a curveball forces everybody to take a long, hard look at their current approach.

While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.

Rookies have a long history of pleasantly surprising. 1902 came within reach of Einstein their first time out, 2377 ran with the best of them at IRI in 2008, and two-thirds of the 2000 KSC regional finalists? Rookies--but really, who's heard of 342 and 343?

As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year).

Right, but even WildStang might opt for a skid-steer if they don't think the resource demands require it.

Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams.

Yes, veteran teams that had to hold workshops, release all of their code developed during the beta test, open their facilities to teams wanting to come by and get a feel for it, and a whole host of other requirements. If anything, they had to take resources away from other activities in order to beta test.

I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies.

It eliminates variables--nobody's got any secret sauce to getting grip this year, and everybody's got to figure out the most effective method of turning these wheels to move around the field. The playing field won't be perfectly level, but nobody ever said it would be. FIRST is not, nor has it ever been, fair.

[swamp_child]

You guys all bring up valid points. IDK maybe I'm just really upset about this game because of team update #1, but that's a whole other issue.

[T3_1565]

to be completly honest it looks level to me. There isn't anything on it, no slopes, monkey bars or anything of sorts. Just a pretty level floor


(come on, nobody thought of this, for shame)

[EStokely]

I think that the discussion has merit, regardless of how individuals feel about the game.

But...
IMHO, we can't have a absolutely level playing field. Not with each and every team starting from scratch. Even two rookie teams are not neccesarily even when they start based on who is on their team.

But I believe the GDC really threw us all a great curve to deal with. In essence we all have the same drive. I don't recall a past game where that has happened. And we all know how important drives are, and a vet team will have an advantage on carpet.

So really I think they have just made a game that, so far, has been surprisingly fun to work with.
And in the end, after the game has been played and robots put out to pasture, it wasn't about the machines, but the students, FIRST (what it stands for) and the relationships that mentors are trying to build.

Hopefully you will dig the game and see a rookie take the prize in Atlanta.

[elvis9110]

the video doesnt account for the mass of the trailer with balls, and it looks like several other videos ive seen. most of the drivetrains will be about the same efficacy i think.

[swamp_child]

A crab drive will be the most effective drive train this year, hands down. If you can get crab drive with traction control, you will be able to out maneuver everyone, and thats about all you can do this year.

[Uberbots]

To the OP:

I think you are horrendously mistaken. First off, the data. You are basing your assumptions on a simple video posted by WildStang demonstrating their crab drive and the false assumption that beta-testers get more resources (which ewas already discussed previously). Wildstang's youtube video demonstrates little about the dynamics that will be present in the game. furthermore, they give you no data about the test performed, it looks like they added a bunch of weight to their robot, and the trailer is not to specification. even more, their turning still leaves much to be desired.

Second of all, this is a "curveball" that the GDC has thrown at us. By changing the surface that we have grown so accustomed to, they have essentially told us to stop using what has worked in the past and think of something that will work better in a low friction environment. they are begging us to solve the issue of slow turning and acceleration. They are begging us to use the camera to create an innovative shooter/unloader system that can deal with moving targets. They are begging us to turn this ice rink into an asphalt racing stadium.

Sure, Wildstang could go out and use their crab drive system. But i dont think they would, because in doing this they would be discouraging themselves of thinking of a better way of moving around. It is completely likely that any team (even a rookie team) could think of a method of moving around that could give them split second turning and high-friction like accelerations and would be able to outrun anybody and anything.

in my opinion, FIRST is stressing the I in their name more than ever this year. make 'em proud.