Decorative LEDs?

[MrWibbles]

Our team is considering a battery of decorative LEDs covering most of a side of our 'bot.
The FIRST manual had a rule against lights that interfere with vision sensing, would this then be illegal?
The lights aren't going to be very bright, and we will possibly only light up one row at a time.

[demosthenes2k8]

What's that supposed to do again?

[Eric Finn]

demosthenes: It's supposed to be a decoration, generally meaning "it's supposed to look pretty."

MrWibbles:
I don't think you'll run into problems using blue LEDs, but other colors may throw off people's vision systems. You say they're not that bright, but do remember that robots are looking for something that reflects a good deal of light. Anything that gives off light has the potential to be bright enough to throw off a vision system.

While people using HSL are probably not going to have much of a problem, people using RGB could be thrown off by red or green LEDs, or LEDs of any color with a red or green component (purple, for instance, contains red). I suggest you test to see if your camera picks up the LEDs as the vision target. If so, don't use them.

[MrWibbles]

There is no functional purpose. It will be decorative, and specifically it will be synced to the competition's music.

By the way, <R02>c states:

Originally Posted by "FIRST <R02>

ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, or cause and unsafe condition. Items specifically PROHIBITED from use on the ROBOT include:
[...]
C. Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities (including vision systems [...]) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent's vision system)

This seems uncomfortably close, although our intent isn't to screw with cameras.

[demosthenes2k8]

0.o how are you going to sync it?
Maybe if you just make them too low for the cameras...

[Eric Finn]

Synchronization could be achieved with a microphone and a little bit of coding. I have a few ideas as to how it could be done, but that isn't the point.
As long as you don't change your color to something similar to something on the vision target, you may be fine. Again, I suggest just using blue LEDs, as neither color has a major blue component.

For a more definitive answer, go to the Q&A.

[Urban Hawk]

i'd say just becareful with what you put on it.(dont put green and pink ones on it) and also you can always turn em off if you have to so make sure that you can easily do it.

also you can put up the argument that you never intended for them to jam or interfere with other robots to get around the rules.

[Eric Finn]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

also you can put up the argument that you never intended for them to jam or interfere with other robots to get around the rules.

Well, even with an excuse like this, they would not let you use the LEDs anymore. They're not going to let you use something that interferes with vision systems even if they weren't intended to.

[demosthenes2k8]

C. Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities (including vision systems [...]) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent's vision system)

Who knows..?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

i'd say just becareful with what you put on it.(dont put green and pink ones on it) and also you can always turn em off if you have to so make sure that you can easily do it.

also you can put up the argument that you never intended for them to jam or interfere with other robots to get around the rules.

I agree with the first part. Have a switch or something to disable them. Though you'll probably not have the weight, or the impacts from other robots will be picked up and cause flashing.

Also, be careful of <R02-A>, which reads: "Shields, curtains, or any other devices or materials designed or used to obstruct or limit the vision of any PILOTS and/or COMMANDERS and/or interfere with their ability to safely control their ROBOT". I know it wouldn't be intentional, but you'll need to be careful. If it's used in this manner, the refs can potentially call you on <S04>, which is an automatic penalty. (You could also be called on <S01> for creating a potentially dangerous situation--interfering with control of the robots.)

I do have a problem with the second part of the quoted post, though. "I never intended to xyz" probably won't carry any weight with the refs and inspectors. You didn't intend to, but you did. It's hard to judge intent on the fly.

The part I really have a problem with the is last part, though. "...to get around the rules." If you intend to get around the rules, you will be caught. We call it "lawyering" around here, or interpreting the rules to suit your design based on trivial items, rather than the original intent, where it can be seen. If you must do this, be prepared to change any designs you have that are possibly not in line with the intent of the rules.

[demosthenes2k8]

Shields, curtains, or any other devices or materials designed or used to obstruct or limit the vision of any PILOTS and/or COMMANDERS and/or interfere with their ability to safely control their ROBOT

So even if they aren't designed for it, if they are used for it it's still illegal, even if its an accident.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by demosthenes2k8

So even if they aren't designed for it, if they are used for it it's still illegal, even if its an accident.

Pretty much. I've seen robots that were designed not to tip other robots do so accidentally (or maybe not) and get penalized. Intent is one of the hardest things in the world to judge.

[MrWibbles]

Wow, this forum does move quickly... thanks for all the support
The pink target will have a blue component, but the red will very much predominate so I agree that blue's our best bet. Green and magenta are complementary, so you can't get a perfectly innocent color.

As for <R02-A>, that seems to refer to obstructing human vision. Camera interference falls under C, mostly.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by MrWibbles

As for <R02-A>, that seems to refer to obstructing human vision. Camera interference falls under C, mostly.

Tell me, would you be distracted if you saw a bank of bright blue flashing lights while you were trying to concentrate on something else? If not, you're better than I am at that.

[ringo115]

i have a suggestion, why dont you rig it up, video tape it, and then simply send it to first and ask them what they think