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 Thinking (or the lack of it) will be our downfall. - sirbleedsalot [more] |
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| Thinking (or the lack of it) will be our downfall. - sirbleedsalot [more] |
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#1
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DREAM Act in Congress
Here is a website that does a great Job of informing about the DREAM Act and what the current status is
http://dreamact.info/ also included is the predicted vote Here is a list of senators and what they are predicted to vote http://dreamact.info/senators If you don't know what the DREAM act is.... Purpose The purpose of the Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act, also called the DREAM Act, is to help those individuals who meet certain requirements, have an opportunity to enlist in the military or go to college and have a path to citizenship which they otherwise would not have without this legislation. Supporters of the DREAM Act believe it is vital not only to the people who would benefit from it, but also the United States as a whole. It would give an opportunity to undocumented immigrant students who have been living in the U.S. since they were young, a chance to contribute back to the country that has given so much to them and a chance to utilize their hard earned education and talents. Would I qualify? The following is a list of specific requirements one would need in order to qualify for the current version of the DREAM Act. Must have entered the United States before the age of 16 Must have been present in the United States for at least five (5) consecutive years Must have graduated from a United States high school, or have obtained a GED, or have been accepted into an institution of higher education (i.e. college/university) Must be between the ages of 12 and 30 Must have good moral character I have also included a copy of a letter I wrote and I am circulating A statement from Faridodin “Fredi” Lajvardi in support of the DREAM Act, March 28, 2009 With all the economic grief and unyielding warfare at the front of our national consciousness, it is unsurprising that the immigration debate has faded somewhat. Yet the problem is ever present and without a strategic plan in sight. The federal legislature, however, is revisiting the DREAM (Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors) Act. While not a comprehensive immigration policy in itself, its promise as part of a path toward immigration compromise is easily overlooked. In the U.S., approximately 65,000 undocumented students graduate from high school each year. Arizona is among those states making it almost impossible for a qualified student who is undocumented to pursue higher education. I believe that many Arizonans who feel gratified by this unfortunate trend would feel differently if they had a clearer view of its unintended consequences to the immigrant students and to society generally. Contrary to popular perception, more and more of these undocumented students are valedictorians of their graduating class, captains of their football teams, the nerds who win science competitions, and the color guard of the ROTC programs, carrying the flag that represents their hopes, dreams, and values just as it represents our own. Regarding their residency status, they are not guilty of committing any crime even though they are often called “illegals”. Many of these students, often brought to this country as very young children, are unfamiliar with their country of origin. Their identity and outlook is rooted in this country. Say what you will about the actions of their parents, these young people are bearing the burden of belonging to no country through no fault of their own. As Americans who value the dignity of the individual and believe in individual responsibility, we should reject the stigmatization of these young people. Reality matters. Any workable solution to the immigration problem must take into account the impossibility of “deporting them all.” I am surprised to hear so many otherwise reasonable people hold firm to this unrealistic “solution”. The DREAM Act requires undocumented high school graduates to continue with higher education or to serve in the military, and maintain a clean criminal record. Passing the DREAM Act would help focus our resources on deporting those who are not contributing, law-abiding members of society. Furthermore, it acknowledges the reality that denying educational opportunity to young immigrants will not result in self-deportation. It merely increases the number of underemployed individuals living in the economic shadows. Another undeniable reality is that preventing qualified, undocumented students from pursuing higher education is akin to throwing away our investment, our human capital. We spend approximately $70,000 per student to educate them from kindergarten through high school, only to prevent them from maximizing their potential as tax-paying members of society. We need all young people who are willing and able to go to college to proceed, politically unimpeded, particularly in the fields of math, science, and technology. Is higher education a right or is it a privilege? This is no longer the right question. Our country needs as many educated workers to build our economy as we can possibly produce – now more than ever. That’s the reality. The DREAM act does not solve the entire immigration conundrum. It is, however, the right first step toward a long overdue compromise on this issue. And it is, as always, the right time to do the right thing. 
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#3
31-03-2009, 17:54
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Wish I could say the same about AZ, MacCain yes, Kyle no
We need other states to help us here in AZ! As Mark Leon says  o the math!"1 student graduates and earns an medium income on lets say $50,000.00. Over a course of his lifetime that would be $1,500,00.00 at 30 % tax bracket that would make it $450,000.00 in taxes over his or her lifetime. If there are 65,000 people like this a year (undocumented students per year grad h.s.)If you took the 65,000 people and gave them a median income of $50,000.00 for 30 years at 30 % tax rate having paid $450,000.00 in taxes each, the amount in taxes paid by the 65,000 people would be $29,250,000,000.00 !!!!!! 29 billion! Maybe my math is wrong, but even if it is, I bet it is still a bunch of money! Why are we not passing the DREAM Act? It seems like the national debt could use more help. It would definitely grow our economy. Right now they are here and number in the millions and not paying taxes, what a loss. Of human capitol as well as financial.
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#4
31-03-2009, 19:09
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
Fredi, While I believe your heart is in the right place, I can not agree with what is being proposed here. My reasons are as follows: 1> You state that there are 65000 undocumented students that are graduating every year. To me that means that there are 65000 legal immigrants that are being denied access to our school systems (and immigrant status) becuase illegal (yes, illegal) immigrants are taking up that space and those funds. 2> You say they are not guilty of commiting any crime, yet by their existance within the borders without papers they are, indeed, knowingly and willingly breaking the law. The law does not take into account how long they've been here, what type of person they are, or anything else other than their right to be here (which they do not have). 3> You are correct that we are spending $70000 per student on education (K-12). Don't you believe that we should be educating those who follow our laws rather than knowingly and willfully break them? 4> You state that 'deporting them all' is unrealistic, and I agree with you on that point. But the answer is not to reward them for breaking the laws (for doing so only encourages more). The answer is with supply and demand. To stem the supply we need to give them nothing (No schooling, No welfare, No unemployment, No protections) and to stem the demand we need to increase the punishments for assisting them (fines and jail for giving them work, transporting them, and harboring them). By gaining control of the illegal (yes, I used that word again) immigrant issue we will be able to increase legal immigration and secure our borders better. DREAM is well intentioned, but will only exacerbate an already bad situation. Legal immigration is the way to go, not giving those who break the law even more freedoms. The above is my personal opinion. I apologise if it offends others, but I felt that the other side of the argument needed to be aired.
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#5
31-03-2009, 19:27
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
(I'm not stating my opinions one way or the other on the bill, just posing a question.) Last edited by Billfred : 31-03-2009 at 19:29.
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#6
31-03-2009, 20:25
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
“Immigrants are taking up that space and those funds”
We have room for a whole lot more of smart kids raised in the U.S. It is one of the goals of FIRST As an engineer you probably already know that the majority of Engineering graduate students in the U.S. are international students. Less than half were born here. We have been importing engineers, medical professionals and other occupations for 30 years. Can we afford to not use the smart kids who live down the block? Do we really live in a society where we punish children for their parent’s decisions? My family moved from San Francisco to Los Angeles when I was young. I didn’t want to go, but I was a kid. I go where my parents took me. I had no choice. Now these kids ARE here and they will marry, they will have children. They have spent their school years reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. They go to our churches and they are even on FIRST teams. This is home. These transplanted kids are now at the age where they will become productive and contribute to our society. “the answer is not to reward them” Few people in my age group (Vietnam) thought 2 years in the military as a reward. It was a duty, maybe. Working to earn a college degree may have a deferred reward, but most people do not go to college because they think it is a cost of money and time and a lot of work. Young people who want to serve our country in the military or are willing to spend time and money to obtain a college degree are sacrificing a lot and should be encouraged, not discouraged. I think the DREAM Act is not only the right thing to do, but it makes economic sense at a time when we need more educated people, more innovators, more diverse dialog. Anyway, my $0.02
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#7
31-03-2009, 20:27
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
I will answer you on a point by point basis # 1 There are 65 thousand students graduating annually and growing not decreasing. The reason why they are not challenged before this I can only guess. I can say that schools get federal and state dollars for each student they have regardless of status. As long as money comes into the system no one complains. Many of the kids that you label as illegal don't even know they are undocumented, the term I prefer, until they are ready to graduate and try to fill out scholarships. To them this is the only country they have ever known. Imagine you finding out that you are illegal after you spent your whole recollected life here in the U.S.. Would you turn yourself in and then go to Mexico to live in a "Foreign" country? I highly doubt it. The education system has already "rewarded" them up through high school and then you suggest we throw them out. I fail to see this as a viable option when you can finish the job and let them become contributing members of society after having reaped the rewards. We need troops for all the wars we choose to engage in and our troops want to come home, many of the undocumented students would willingly go and do a tour of duty for the country they love. # 2 Yes it may be the law, but I find it difficult to understand how a 1 year old is knowingly and willingly breaking the law. They are victims in this case. They are paying for a crime they did not commit. Do you want to pay for crimes that your parents commit? Yet despite the persecution and living in the shadows, many of the prosper and aspire to be productive Americans in the country they have grown up in and love as much as anybody. Team 842 is a prime example of that. We can choose to send all these productive people out of the country or we can maybe find out how we might capitalize of the problem and use the situation to our advantage. We need all the human capitol we can get in the race to lead in STEM in the world. Thomas Friedman makes this point in his latest book Flat Hot and Crowded. Barack Obama also sees this as an opportunity to make right morally what has been done to the children. Are we a country that is that vindictive that we will destroy a child and his or her life as to be comfortable that we followed the law or are we a compassionate country who will fix the problem and make sure it does not happen again in the future. # 3 The schools have been using the "law" to get the funding they need to run the schools, including getting them to pass state standardized tests so they can help the schools reach their AYP, annual yearly progress, as mandated by leave no child behind. It would make sense to make sure we spend the money on documented students but its not happening and the states and the schools are taking total advantage of it as well. A child is a child and is not culpable for his or her legal standing, it seems immoral to me not to educate them. # 4 The punishment as you say that should be dispensed for anyone helping them is not happening. There are some trivial examples, but by far and away its a joke. There are over 12 million undocumented in the US, you tell me if its working. This means of all countries, not just Mexico, although not many people get pulled over for looking Chinese. To me it seems that the DREAM act is a solution to a problem where it is a win, win. The student will realize the full potential as a citizen and the U.S. will gain a highly motivated and purpose driven individual who has worked at becoming a citizen unlike the rest of us who were just lucky enough to be born here. What downside do you see with this for America if the borders were sealed so that little or no one could cross. I am against illegal immigration but I believe that punishing children is cruel and immoral. Until the government can seal the borders I will continue to stand up for children as long as it takes for the right thing to be done. Last edited by falconmaster : 31-03-2009 at 20:33.
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#8
31-03-2009, 21:09
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
Also, school districts are not necessarily interested in the immigration status of their students. This is a matter of privacy and of liability. If they actively try to find out about someone's immigration status, then they open themselves to allegations of discrimination on that basis. If they don't know, they can't be held responsible. (It's an open question whether any particular school system is just avoiding excess responsibility, or actually feels an ethical duty to protect students' privacy.) If you're instead meaning to imply that 65 000 more students could have been granted visas to study at the secondary level, but were not granted those visas because of the presence of illegal immigrants, then you need to evaluate whether other factors might conceivably weigh upon the issuance of visas. Are there 65 000 willing immigrant students who could be issued visas under the current system? Remember, they have to demonstrate all kinds of resources within the country, like a sponsor, a place to live, financial support, etc. in order to qualify for a visa (and doubly so for a minor). Quote:
Who formed the intent to enter the country illegally? Probably the parent—so it's unethical to punish the child for this. And given that the child (now aged 12 to 30) was probably not consulted on the decision to enter illegally, to what degree can they be held liable for their continued presence? Surely you can't hold a minor responsible under these circumstances. And for older immigrants (18 to 30), even if they are now culpable, do they have a defence in the fact that their means are insufficient to support a return to the "old country" with an acceptable standard of life? (Or would you have the U.S. government order them back, despite the fact that it would be the proximate cause of their resulting hardship?) Also, as a pointed example, are you suggesting that a high school student, being competent enough to understand that he is in violation of immigration law, ought to turn himself in to the authorities for deportation? You realize that that might be a little unrealistic to hope for? Quote:
Maybe you haven't stopped to consider what happens when students don't get an education? It doesn't matter if they ultimately get deported, or if they remain in the U.S.; withholding education does not serve the public interest, because it results in people failing to accumulate skills that would allow them to contribute to any economy, American or otherwise. Quote:
This is perceived as bad for the Americans who are no longer employed, but in some sense, it is also good for the American economy, because it readjusts the expectations to favour a more sustainable standard of living. That is supply and demand. Note that I'm not saying that this is necessarily a state of affairs to strive for—because there are obvious problems with alienating the American labour force, and diminishing the standard of living—but you can't just assume that they make no useful contribution, and can therefore be treated as persona non grata. Their contributions are valuable, and an integral part of many American regional economies. Quote:
I shouldn't single out America for all the criticism, though. Many other countries struggle with this question. Fundamentally, people are afraid that the foreigners will use state resources and occupy local jobs, while sending their income overseas where it contributes to someone else's economy. The thing to realize, though, is that this is a problem shared by all developed nations—in other words, the states that can best afford to contribute some of their wealth toward the economic progress of the developing world. In some sense, this is the least-socialistic way to do things: let the workers compete in a free market, and let individuals choose the way that they spend their resources, even if that means sending cash overseas. (The developed state can therefore feel less responsibility, as a matter of foreign policy, to prop up the economies of the developing world, because individuals are sending the cash where they feel it is most needed.) Ultimately, I think that everyone would prefer that immigrants enter through legal channels alone, and that as a corollary, the legal channels be constructed in proportion to the foreign policy responsibilities of a developed nation. But in the current state of affairs, we need to ask whether permitting some illegal immigration to take place yields a more favourable overall outcome than stopping it suddenly. And when the illegal immigrants being helped are the ones who have shown the most motivation to become productive members of American society, I don't understand how it can be argued rationally that they are unworthy of citizenship. In effect, aren't they demonstrating that they possess the same favourable qualities that are judged when someone makes an application for an immigrant visa?
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#9
31-03-2009, 21:36
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
on the whole Immigration thing, haven't we seen this in FIRST already... somewhere like this? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1595837.shtml that maybe... anyone remember that?
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#10
31-03-2009, 22:09
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Quote:
Sometime immigrants who have the greatest struggle become the best citizens.
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#11
01-04-2009, 13:25
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Team 842 met with Amadou when he attended the Championships. Believe me when I say that he isn't alone.
Below I've attached a copy of my request for our US Representatives and Senators to support the DREAM Act. Understand that I could have easily substitutedthe word "our" many times throughout the letter and replaced it with "our country's" which would encompass a national perspective. "I am writing this in order to ask for your support for the upcoming DREAM Act. I am the school’s Special Education Facilitator and a mentor/coach for our award winning robotics team at Carl Hayden Community High School in Phoenix. In these capacities I get to work daily with the lowest functioning students as well as some of the most gifted students on campus. Passage of the DREAM Act will help students in both of these areas. The DREAM Act will help make it possible for some of our country's lowest level/functioning students to reach their highest potential. Currently they are not eligible for continuance of services beyond high school. Due to their developmental disabilities, many of the students need additional services in order to become active productive members of society. They currently miss out on services that would continue their training to a point where they can be gainfully employed, live in an assisted living area, and pay for many of the services they receive, as well as pay taxes for other services. Passage of the DREAM Act will additionally help many of our country's brightest students reach their goals and aspirations. We have students who are valedictorians, salutatorians, future engineers, doctors, biologists, business leaders, chefs, computer specialists, game designers, math and science teachers, and any other of a multitude of careers who might not be able to fulfill these dreams without the passage of the DREAM Act. The United States already has a vested interest in many of these students. Many of our country's undocumented students have lived in the United States since they were very young. They were brought here without being asked. The United States of America has become—and is—their homeland. They are Americans! They want to fulfill their dreams just like other American children want to fulfill theirs. Their parents want the same for their children as we want for ours—to have a better life than we have. I’m not really sure what the average cost is to educate students from K-12, but have heard that it is close to $100,000. If that’s true we have already invested a great deal of money, time, and effort in educating these hidden children. I think it is a waste to throw them away. Passage of the DREAM Act will help the United States of America make money through this investment. By allowing an avenue to become United States citizens many of our students will be able to reach their dreams and the country will reap the benefits. We will have another source of highly motivated career-minded people who are yearning to fill much needed areas: military members, engineers, doctors, school teachers and other fields that the US currently needs. We have the resources here in our country now -- students who have been educated in the US. With this resource in place we could slow-down the recruitment sources like India, Philippines, Korea, etc and continue investing in the country’s future. These students are a good investment, let’s bankroll our investments, spend a little more, and let them pay the country back. Passage of the DREAM Act will help all levels of students, from the lower functioning developmentally disabled to the most gifted and talented young men and women. These individuals are Americans who only know the United States as their home. They’ve been educated in and by the US system; many excelling. They identify themselves as Americans, want to succeed as Americans, and are willing to do what ever it takes to fulfill their dreams as Americans. We have additionally invested time, money, and sweat in educating and mentoring these students. Why waste this investment when we can benefit from their future as United States citizens? I urge you to invest in our future; our country’s future; our students’ future; by supporting the DREAM Act. Sincerely, James H. Haugen Major, USAF, Retired Disabled Vet SPED Facilitator, Carl Hayden Community High School Mentor, Falcon Robotics, Team 842"
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#12
01-04-2009, 22:58
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Way to go Jim!
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#13
05-04-2009, 13:39
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Apparently I touched upon some peoples hot buttons (Ledge, tristan?), so let me explain myself a bit.
I have helped legal immigrants become US citizens, I have helped foreign nationals become legal immigrants. I am NOT against immigration, in fact I am FOR increasing legal immigration. What I am against is bills that reward (Giving access to our schools, public services, welfare system, etc) breaking our (immigration) laws, Bills that encourage parents abandoning their children here, and bills that circumvent (DREAM citizenship) our current laws (legal immigration) by rewarding those that ignore our current laws. While I believe that the OPs heart is in the right place (Believe me, I have huge respect for Ledge and all that he has done), I believe that this bill (and others like it) will only foster more illegal immigration and more children being abandoned, in hopes of a better life for them. This is why I am against this bill, and why I propose 'tough love'. Again, these are my opinions and thoughts.
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#14
09-07-2009, 22:21
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
Just a odd thought: Many people in this thread have pointed out that the undocumented immigrants have a lot to offer to our economy and our country. I'm just curious if that's the case why are they coming here? Maybe instead of trying to find a way to keep illegal immigrants out we could try to think of a way to make them stop wanting to come. I totally agree with falconmaster, the current system of punishing illegal immigrants is currently rather ineffective. But I don't think that we should reward people for entering the country illegally either (it kind of kicks all the people who have been in line for legal entry in the teeth). Instead, is there anything that we could do as a nation that could provide the people entering illegally the things that they come seeking without actually letting them in? That way they could put their various talents towards improving their home countries and that way they wouldn't need illegally enter our country. That would be a win-win situation...or maybe not. Did I make any sense?
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#15
09-07-2009, 22:26
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Re: DREAM Act in Congress
This is a pretty old thread...
Like helping mexico out? I'm not sure i understand...
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