Computer purchase help

[akolonich]

Our team is looking to purchase a small cheap Laptop for programming purposes. I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what general specifications to look for when purchasing one.

Would a netbook be appropriate for this? We have looked at a few and it seems ideal, but I know they don't have a ton of space to load programs.

Thanks!

[artdutra04]

FIRST has announced that teams are getting a Classmate PC netbook in the KoP in 2010 to use as their driver station. Depending on what operating system is installed on it and how everything works out, you may be able to program your robot using that computer.

But even if a version of Linux is installed on it as the default OS for use as the driver station, the current generation Classmate PC ships with a 60Gb internal HDD. This is easily enough to create a second partition to install Windows and the bare essentials for programming the robot. They also have a built-in SD card reader, so you can purchase something like a 16Gb or 32Gb SDHC card and boot Windows off that while leaving the internal HDD alone.

[RyanCahoon]

See these previous threads.

--Ryan

[Abrakadabra]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

FIRST has announced that teams are getting a Classmate PC netbook in the KoP in 2010 to use as their driver station. Depending on what operating system is installed on it and how everything works out, you may be able to program your robot using that computer. ...

I don't really know for sure, but I wouldn't bank on this being allowed. The first Beta documentation that has been released to everyone (see Bill's Blog of 9/23) states:

0.1.1 Task 2 – Install and Update Software - for all teams

This task is to verify the software and firmware installation procedures.
... For teams testing the Driver Station hardware, do not attempt to install the software on the Classmate.

Again, not sure if this is only a rule to simplify the Beta test or if it will actually be the rule during the season, but it does seem to point to some kind of issue. Plus, it would mean that your programmers couldn't work on the code while the robot was being driven, and vice versa.

[James Tonthat]

If the physical size isn't an issue, I'd get some sort of Lenovo Thinkpad with a high res screen. It helps to be able to fit a lot of the code on the screen. I say Thinkpad, because they are some of the most rugged "regular" notebooks I've seen (not Toughbook.) HP laptops can be pretty quality depending on the series. For the past two years, we've regularly programmed and beat on HP laptops and tablets.

Storage isn't that much of an issue. Processor speed is always nice, a large amount of RAM, hi-res screen (as I previously mentioned), a good feeling keyboard (programmers will spend a lot of time on these, keyboard feel is pretty important), good driver support in multiple OS' (I recommend some sort of Intel chipset with Intel processor, and integrated video is okay.

A netbook really isn't an appropriate programming device because of the small keyboard, trackpad, and screen.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by jtkellertx

If the physical size isn't an issue, I'd get some sort of Lenovo Thinkpad with a high res screen.

I just bought a Lenovo Thinkpad with a 1680x1050 screen to replace my Dell D600 with a 1400x1050. I really like the screen, the lack of burning my legs, and the lack of being broken all the time (so far). I do not like the placement of the function key (right where control should be), the fact that my fat hands always hit the trackpad when I type, or that their customer service leaves a lot to be desired.

I paid 900 for mine from their outlet, but mine is overkill for your needs. You could get a really nice and well suited one from Lenovo or HP for 400-500.

Originally Posted by jtkellertx

A netbook really isn't an appropriate programming device because of the small keyboard, trackpad, and screen.

Seconded. My old eyes can't handle those tiny screens.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

Seconded. My old eyes can't handle those tiny screens.

Depends on the type of programming really. For Labview programming? Forget it. For text based programming they can actually be handy. I use my 15" MBP for a lot of programming and it is a pain because I get distracted by other things on the screen and having the windows maximized is a waste of space IMHO.

Lenovo does make some nice stuff. I also must suggest that you contact the companies and tell them you are a school (or a school student) most of them have discounts for that (only some of them are on the website)

[McGurky]

I would also talk to your school and see what there restrictions are. I know our school needs to approve the computers before we use them in the school/on the schools network.

I also would not count on the drivers station for programming. First of all FIRST may not let you and second I remember reading that the the Classmates we will be getting only have like a 1-4gb SSD?

Ask some members of the team if they have any older computers that they would like to donate to the team, this worked for us!!

[Kingofl337]

Honestly pretty much anything you buy will work for programming. Resolution is important, you can fit information on the screen at once. Other than that, seeing it's not a personal laptop I wouldn't spend much. It will probably be beaten up pretty bad.

Based on my experience this is the the life of a laptop. It has been getting shorter and shorter almost every year since 2000. I think this is about right for 2009.

The life of a laptop - Some stages overlap
1. Oh it's new a shiny, be very careful with it. (1-6months)
2. Small dings and scratches, that's ok, try to be careful (4-12months)
3. Loaded with a bunch of software, staring to slow down (6-16months)
4. Laptop is starting to feel really slow (12+ months)
5. Try uninstalling all the "Un-needed software" (16+months)
6a. Format the drive and reinstall the OS (16+ months)
6b. Install more memory (16+ months)
6c. 5a and 5b will both happen (16+months)
7. Laptop will be replaced. (24 months)

[Roger]

For our "old eyes" we plugged in a large monitor to our small programming laptop. Now we have one programmer on the laptop squinting and the other programmers and me on the big screen. Saves everyone hunkered around a tiny screen. A "some day" project would be to get a projector screen to program with.

For the 2009 season we used laptops we had from the years before no problem, but when we got to our first regional the laptop had connection "issues" as it was a Win2K and not an XP/Vista. Thankfully I had my own XP 17" laptop there all ready to go, and before our next regional I bought a $599 Vista laptop to do the programming on. I forget the make/model but it performs great with Labview.

Yes, Labview needs lots of screen to program properly! And yes -- be consistant with the keyboards: One man's CTRL key is another man's DEL key, if you know what I mean.

Kingofl337's laptop life cycle is probably true, so $599 is a better value than my own $1800 with bells-and-whistles laptop.

[Jared Russell]

Things I look for specifically in my programming laptops:

1. Durability. I have dropped, stepped on, and spilled on my programming laptops in the pits. It happens. If you can, try to get a sense of the quality of construction of your laptop in a store before buying.

2. A good sized screen and keyboard. A 15" screen is preferable. Netbooks are nice and portable, but you will go blind and get carpal tunnel trying to do significant coding on them.

3. A sane keyboard layout. Some manufacturers get "cute" with key placement and sizing. Drives me nuts.

4. RS-232 serial connection (optional, but desirable). It is getting almost impossible to find these built in, and while USB dongles provide connectivity they are slow and can get lost. Even with the cRIO, having a serial cable for debugging can save your butt at times.

Our team has traditionally looked at refurbished laptops for our programming needs, both because they are cheaper and they are more likely to have RS-232 built in. And even if we destroy our refurb, it will only cost a few hundred dollars to replace (rather than $1000 or more for a top of the line model).

[Kingofl337]

Screen Size in inches does not directly translate to resolution. I've seen 17" laptops with 1440x900 screens and I've seen 15" screens with 1680x1050. Pixels = Usable Desktop Space.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Kingofl337

Screen Size in inches does not directly translate to resolution. I've seen 17" laptops with 1440x900 screens and I've seen 15" screens with 1680x1050. Pixels = Usable Desktop Space.

Another way to look at it is that Eric's new laptop has approximately the same pixel pitch as a 10" netbook with a 1024x600 resolution. Things will be displayed the same size on both, but there's more usable desktop space on Eric's laptop.

[akolonich]

Wow! Thank you for all your help, those are all great things to look for that I wouldn't have thought of.

Thanks to everyone who replied!

[akolonich]

Originally Posted by Kingofl337

Honestly pretty much anything you buy will work for programming. Resolution is important, you can fit information on the screen at once. Other than that, seeing it's not a personal laptop I wouldn't spend much. It will probably be beaten up pretty bad.

Based on my experience this is the the life of a laptop. It has been getting shorter and shorter almost every year since 2000. I think this is about right for 2009.

The life of a laptop - Some stages overlap
1. Oh it's new a shiny, be very careful with it. (1-6months)
2. Small dings and scratches, that's ok, try to be careful (4-12months)
3. Loaded with a bunch of software, staring to slow down (6-16months)
4. Laptop is starting to feel really slow (12+ months)
5. Try uninstalling all the "Un-needed software" (16+months)
6a. Format the drive and reinstall the OS (16+ months)
6b. Install more memory (16+ months)
6c. 5a and 5b will both happen (16+months)
7. Laptop will be replaced. (24 months)

This is so sad, but absolutely true! I am currently on step 5 with my personal Laptop.....