Calling Out All Programmers

[davidthefat]

Which route are you guys taking to code the robot? C++, Java or the LabView?

I seem to have to use Java... I wanted to use C++ but my mentor is like "The C++ Libraries Are Too Messy" or something like that... And that the Java code wont be any slower than the C++ because of FPGAs or something

[apalrd]

LabVIEW. We like the real-time front panel.

[Robopanda6]

I don't mind Labview, it's easier to use than the other languages but it's just so messy. I'd rather lines of code than bits and pieces of it on my screen.

[keehun]

That's kind of funny actually -- since you can literally take C++ code, change the syntax to Java (like capitalization, accessors, etc) and compile it. Likewise, you can take Java code and change the syntax and compile it with WindRiver. I actually found C++ file a lot more elegant than LabView files we tried last year. The biggest difference is real-time execution (C++ is fast -- but is it "live" like LabView? -- I don't know). LabView by nature is slower, but it is able to process multiple things at once -- a tradeoff?

Anyway, We're using C++. We have a opensource Github, but latest code's not pushed yet. Perhaps I'm wrong about it, but I think your mentor's off the mark when he says "messy libraries". And also, are you the only programmer? How many others are there? What's your guy's consensus on a language preference? A mentor shouldn't force the students in to anything. (Except maybe administrative functions?)

That's just how my team rolls...

Thanks,
Keehun
Team 2502

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by keehun

That's kind of funny actually -- since you can literally take C++ code, change the syntax to Java (like capitalization, accessors, etc) and compile it. Likewise, you can take Java code and change the syntax and compile it with WindRiver. I actually found C++ file a lot more elegant than LabView files we tried last year. The biggest difference is real-time execution (C++ is fast -- but is it "live" like LabView? -- I don't know). LabView by nature is slower, but it is able to process multiple things at once -- a tradeoff?

Anyway, We're using C++. We have a opensource Github, but latest code's not pushed yet. Perhaps I'm wrong about it, but I think your mentor's off the mark when he says "messy libraries". And also, are you the only programmer? How many others are there? What's your guy's consensus on a language preference? A mentor shouldn't force the students in to anything. (Except maybe administrative functions?)

That's just how my team rolls...

Thanks,
Keehun
Team 2502

Yea I code in Java and C++, I been using C++ longer and I like it way better than Java, well the mentor said I CAN use C++ but he highly recommends Java for the sake of the cleanness of the libraries and easier setup

edit: Im the only guy going for C++ LOL All the other programmers want Java since they don't know C++

Edit of Edit: Amen to your sig

[keehun]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

edit: Im the only guy going for C++ LOL All the other programmers want Java since they don't know C++

Edit of Edit: Amen to your sig

Ok, well, if all the other guys want Java, then I say just stick with Java. One of coolest things about FIRST is that it teaches you the benefits of working as a team. For my programming team, majority of the guys know Java, but we chose C++ as a preference for two reasons:

1. We didn't want to try a "new" language for the cRio platform
2. C++ was proven to work and was fast
3. We all kinda-sorta knew C++
4. Being a captain, I pushed for C++ after having a bad experience with LabView last year
5. Our mentor is like a 30 yr veteran in the field of C++ and Systems Networking

After working with it for a couple weeks, I feel C++ was the right choice, but I know that Java or LabView would've equally been fine. Maybe not LabView, but that's only because trying to wrap all the programmer's mindset around the real-time execution paradigm is difficult. Even the 30-yr C++ veteran mentor (he's also a huge expert in Java) didn't know why LabView behaved the way it did -- that was the real downer last year. Also, we wanted to diff and git with C++.

[dmitch]

Originally Posted by keehun

Ok, well, if all the other guys want Java, then I say just stick with Java. One of coolest things about FIRST is that it teaches you the benefits of working as a team. For my programming team, majority of the guys know Java, but we chose C++ as a preference for two reasons:

1. We didn't want to try a "new" language for the cRio platform
2. C++ was proven to work and was fast
3. We all kinda-sorta knew C++
4. Being a captain, I pushed for C++ after having a bad experience with LabView last year
5. Our mentor is like a 30 yr veteran in the field of C++ and Systems Networking

After working with it for a couple weeks, I feel C++ was the right choice, but I know that Java or LabView would've equally been fine. Maybe not LabView, but that's only because trying to wrap all the programmer's mindset around the real-time execution paradigm is difficult. Even the 30-yr C++ veteran mentor (he's also a huge expert in Java) didn't know why LabView behaved the way it did -- that was the real downer last year. Also, we wanted to diff and git with C++.

What was the bad experience you had with labview last year? It would help because that's what our team is using it would help to have an idea of any errors we should expect. Thanks in advance!

[FRC4ME]

619 is using Java this year. Many of the students are taking Java classes in high school, so it fits well. Also, it is so nice not to have to explain memory management to new programmers. C++ has far too many idiosyncrasies that just make new students go, "what the heck?!?" In my opinion, at least.

What I [i]don't]/i] like about Java is that we are limited to ME features. Java without generics has its own idiosyncrasies, too: ((Integer)vector.elementAt(1)).intValue() to extract an int from an array, for example.

[spartango]

192 is using java this year, primarily because students are learning it quite well in class, which leads to a smooth transition into the robotics world. We've noticed no real performance issues(we're sure they're there, but not big enough to hurt our bot) with the JVM this year...

What I don't like about Java is that we are limited to ME features. Java without generics has its own idiosyncrasies, too: ((Integer)vector.elementAt(1)).intValue() to extract an int from an array, for example.

FYI: There is a trick that we've used when developing for squawk(on SPOTs) that allows you to write Java 5 code(with generics etc) and still deploy it to the VM. FRC hasn't gotten around to integrating it with the SDK provided--i expect they will for next year--but if you really want those features...look up "retroweaver". There is also a comment about it in Eric Arseneau's presentation at google:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCM9KN2pzQE
around 28:00...

[j.cole]

If I knew (and by I, I mean anyone on my team) Java that's what I'd use but since LabView is easier and already known by the team that's what we use.

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by keehun

That's kind of funny actually -- since you can literally take C++ code, change the syntax to Java (like capitalization, accessors, etc) and compile it. Likewise, you can take Java code and change the syntax and compile it with WindRiver.

I had a programmer from another team mistake my C++ code for Java.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by basicxman

I had a programmer from another team mistake my C++ code for Java.

int Java = 10;

void Print(const char[] Text)
{
//Not Putting This In...
}

for(int C = 0; C < Java; C ++)
{
if(Java < 100 && > 10)
{
Print("Is this Java Or C Or C++??? Who Knows?");
}
}

[Bigcheese]

We're using C++ again this year for the following reasons.

1. Most of the student programmers know it (the ones that don't know Java).
2. I (the programming mentor) know it and work with it professionally.
3. It offers more control over the execution environment and full access to VxWorks.

Originally Posted by keehun

The biggest difference is real-time execution (C++ is fast -- but is it "live" like LabView? -- I don't know). LabView by nature is slower, but it is able to process multiple things at once -- a tradeoff?

Huh? What do you mean by "real-time execution"? You can't get any more real-time than interrupt driven C/C++.

It is not possible to do multiple things at once on the cRIO in any language without using the FPGA. You can get rather close by using multiple tasks or interrupts, but there is only one core which means only one hardware thread running at a time.

BTW, Java and C++ may be similar on a small part of the syntax level (just like every other curly brace language), but they are far apart semantically or when using any of their features.

[DjMaddius]

Our team is going with C++.

[TheDominis]

I use C++ because I don't know how to drag and drop LabView code . Also I dislike Java.