Vote to change the format of FIRST.

[Mr.G]

FIRST try's to be fair to all teams but in the 9 years I have been involved in FIRST this has always bothered me.

Teams that have a lot of money have a big advantage.

1. They can afford to go to many events thus getting more time to practice and work on their robot.
2. They can build multiple robots so they can work on and practice with their “practice bot”.


Proposal:

Everyone keep their robot and work on it till they go to their first competition and then they take it with them to the competition.

1. Everyone will have the same amount of time to work on their robot.
2. Shipping costs will be less.
3. Teams can make changes and get better and learn more during the season.
4. Teams can practice locally with other teams.
5. There would be no need to build multiple robots.

I see this really helping rookie teams and small teams (which is most of us). If a team only goes to one event and it is a fourth week event they are tremendously disadvantaged because they are playing against teams that have been competing for 3 weeks. This way teams can watch and learn and make changes over the whole build season until they go to their event.

Students are most engaged in the robot at the end when the robot ships and after an event. Having the robot around this whole time will allow them to learn more and be more engaged.

Hope you support this please respond and if not please explain.

This is in no way trying to make the competition season longer. I would like to see the season shortend by a week or 2. I would like a 5 week build and at the end of the 5 weeks start the competitions. This is about inspiring kids and working with them on the robot so they can learn.

[Racer26]

This can't, and doesnt work for a number of reasons. Firstly, it gives those competing at later regionals more time than those in earlier regionals. Secondly, there are a number of events where its impossible, or impractical, or breaks union agreements for teams to bring their bots in. There are more reasons than just these, but they're not coming to mind at the moment.

Additionally, as it is right now, there was only 9 days between ship and wk 1 regionals.

[Mr.G]

I don't think you are reading this correctly. Everyone keeps there robot and takes it from event to event. The robot never leaves their hands. So everyone has the same amount to time to work on their robot.

All Michigan teams and some others are bringing their robots to events now. I believe the union reason can be gotten around. We bring our tools in right now. If you had to you could just pay the union people the hours of work they would have got. It can't cost that much money to move some creates around.

Originally Posted by 1075guy

This can't, and doesnt work for a number of reasons. Firstly, it gives those competing at later regionals more time than those in earlier regionals. Secondly, there are a number of events where its impossible, or impractical, or breaks union agreements for teams to bring their bots in. There are more reasons than just these, but they're not coming to mind at the moment.

Additionally, as it is right now, there was only 9 days between ship and wk 1 regionals.

[ATannahill]

You just ignored everything that was said in that post. Just because certain venues don't have unions doesn't mean others won't.

This is a competition run by a company, not by teams. We can't vote a change to the system. It is this way for a reason.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

You just ignored everything that was said in that post. Just because certain venues don't have unions doesn't mean others won't.

This is a competition run by a company, not by teams. We can't vote a change to the system. It is this way for a reason.

FIRST has always been open to trying different things. They want to expand on the learning being done by students. If they could find a true benefit in a system such as this why not give it a try to benefit those, who the program has bulit for. Last year the tried the Michigan Pliot system it worked. Now I believe they added to more bag and tag events. Yes, the current system isn't broken, but why not try it? It's a proposal, if you work in a company, everything starts out this way.

Just my one and half cents...

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

FIRST has always been open to trying different things. They want to expand on the learning being done by students. If they could find a true benefit in a system such as this why not give it a try to benefit those, who the program has bulit for. Last year the tried the Michigan Pliot system it worked. Now I believe they added to more bag and tag events. Yes, the current system isn't broken, but why not try it? It's a proposal, if you work in a company, everything starts out this way.

Just my one and half cents...

Originally (in the 90's) the robot was brought in by teams. They have changed since then. There was probably a reason and there is probably a reason why it is still that way.

[Racer26]

Also, I think theres some misconceptions about multiple event teams. There are only a handful of teams who attend 3 or more regionals. This number is probably less than 10 total, of all teams in FIRST. There are a relatively large number of 2 event teams, particularly in areas where two regionals are held within 2 hours of each other (GTR and Waterloo, for example). 2 Event teams probably comprise about 20% or so of teams in FIRST. The rest only go to one event. It would be interesting to see some actual numbers to back this up (yeah, I could do it, but I don't have the time). But its not really fair to say you're up against teams that have been playing for 3 weeks. You MIGHT be playing with 2 or 3 teams for which that is true. The majority of teams however, are in the same boat as you.

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Also, I think theres some misconceptions about multiple event teams. There are only a handful of teams who attend 3 or more regionals. This number is probably less than 10 total, of all teams in FIRST.

And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.

At your convenience, please introduce me to a team that win it all every year. There is only one team that has won the top event more than two times, and it took them a decade.

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

At your convenience, please introduce me to a team that win it all every year. There is only one team that has won the top event more than two times, and it took them a decade.

Teams was plural. I think you will find a correlation with the fact that the teams that go to more events win more.

The main reason that I am trying to support this is the fact that the students are ready to learn the most when the robot is getting shipped and around the time of the competitions. At those times the robot isn’t around much for everyone to learn from and work on it. I want the robot in the student’s hands more so they can work on it more and learn more about it and thus make a difference in their lives. At the events a couple students work on it while others are off scouting. I want everyone to learn from it.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

Teams was plural. I think you will find a correlation with the fact that the teams that go to more events win more.

The main reason that I am trying to support this is the fact that the students are ready to learn the most when the robot is getting shipped and around the time of the competitions. At those times the robot isn’t around much for everyone to learn from and work on it. I want the robot in the student’s hands more so they can work on it more and learn more about it and thus make a difference in their lives. At the events a couple students work on it while others are off scouting. I want everyone to learn from it.

Correlation != Causation. These teams don't consistently do well because they go to more events, they go to more events because they do well.

EDIT: To say that one thing causes another without any proof to back it up is meaningless. I could say that the decline in the population of pirates is responsible for global warming, the statistics correlate, but its obvious there's no causation there.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.

Going to multiple events is NOT why they win. These teams are GOOD. They spend most of build season prototyping, and designing, and perfecting their mechanisms before they build them. They have a very effective program, and yes, some of them have large sponsorships, but not all of them do. Going to multiple events helps, but how do you explain why these same teams consistently do well even when they attend Week 1 regionals?

Yes, there are perennial powerhouses. Yes, they're tough to beat. Yes, the competition is better because of them, because younger, less experienced, and less competitive teams strive to beat them, strive to follow in their footsteps. Don't ask them to back down to the level of everyone else. Get everyone else up to their level. They will help you, just ask them for help.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Going to multiple events is NOT why they win. These teams are GOOD. They spend most of build season prototyping, and designing, and perfecting their mechanisms before they build them. They have a very effective program, and yes, some of them have large sponsorships, but not all of them do. Going to multiple events helps, but how do you explain why these same teams consistently do well even when they attend Week 1 regionals?

Yes, there are perennial powerhouses. Yes, they're tough to beat. Yes, the competition is better because of them, because younger, less experienced, and less competitive teams strive to beat them, strive to follow in their footsteps. Don't ask them to back down to the level of everyone else. Get everyone else up to their level. They will help you, just ask them for help.

I don't believe he asked for them to back down, I think he asked to give every team a chance to have a shot to move forward, if its because of wintery storms or because of finical problems. Give everyone the chance to put a lot into there robot.

One and done teams may come to a regional with an unfinished robot and pay not get the chance to play. This would benefit them. Last year the No Robot Left behind was very successful. Every team got to the field, but why not strive to have very team play every match?

[Racer26]

Every team has EQUAL opportunities as it is now. Your proposed system does not in any way change the EQUALITY of the system. All teams are treated equally. If your team goes out, and gets the sponsorship dollars, and gives FIRST a cheque, they'll happily let you play at more events. These big ticket teams (I can think of two in the immediate area of 326, and two to four in the immediate greater toronto area), don't have the big dollars just fall into their laps and become great. They run a great program, and because of that, are given sponsorship dollars which enables their program to get even better.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.

These are the teams that fundraise year round so they can attend 3 or 4 events. Teams that do fundraise that much will likely put in a ton of time and effort into their robot. They will likely be the team that is never satisfied with their robot. They will likely be the team that are always thinking of new strategies. They win every year because they work at it not just because they go to 4 events while some teams only play once. In nearly all cases, they have earned whatever 'advantage' they recieve.