Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

[Joe Johnson]

I have been watching the Michigan State Championships with some interest.

First of all, the seeding points these guys are racking up are giant. I have not done the numbers, but after attending 2 regionals (Chesapeake and Long Island) and watching online the other weeks, I am ready to say that Michigan is the cream of the cream of the crop*. And I am not just talking 469 here. There are monster scores being put up over and over and over.

Here is my question for you. As has been discussed elsewhere on these fori and in many many FIRST circles around the country since the Cass Tech District competition, 469 is the real deal. They have come as close to a lock on the Championship as any team has ever come.

So... ...suppose you are at a pre-Championship competition with them. Suppose you have been battling with them for #1 seed. Suppose you edge them out. Do you pick them and be virtually assured of another trophy (all be it, not FIRST's Grand Championship in Atlanta) OR do you pick another offensive powerhouse and a team to be named later in an attempt to find out PRIOR to the Championships if ANYONE can beat them?

Tough choice, high stakes.

Would you give up a near certain Michigan State Championship (the win of a lifetime for many teams) in order to probe the limits of a team that you may face in Atlanta?

Think about it. Let's hear what you have to say...

Joe J.

*I have predicted privately and now I predict online for the first time, that I believe that 4 of the 6 teams playing the last match on Einstein will be Michigan teams. The bottom half of the Michigan teams are the same as the bottom half around the country but the higher you go in the percentiles, the more distance the Michigan teams put between them and the rest of the country. I am far from unbiased on this matter but I think it is true.

[kramarczyk]

As far as I am concerned it has already been proven as possible at the Troy district event when 33/910/288 tied 217/469/1188 and the tie was due to a penalty on 33/910/288. I wish I could remember the specifics of the penalty. Unfortunately some mechanical failures on the 33/910/288 side prevented them from finishing the deal up.

Yes, I know that situation is not the same as beating them, but it is appreciably close that I would wait until I was forced to beat them and not go handicapping myself.

[thefro526]

Joe,

I can understand exactly where you're coming from in your post, and after reading it, and thinking, I'd have to say that if the decision were up to me, I would skip picking a 469 type robot, and pick another offensive powerhouse. (Assuming we were of the caliber to seed #1 at an event like MSC)

It's not that I have anything against the game that 469 plays, or anything against them as a team, I just would like to try and roll the dice and see if we could beat them with a conventional strategy. After seeing videos of the Defense that 1310 played on 1114 & 2056, I am sure that 469 can, and will be beaten with a similar style of defense, it's just a matter of when.

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

*I have predicted privately and now I predict online for the first time, that I believe that 4 of the 6 teams playing the last match on Einstein will be Michigan teams. The bottom half of the Michigan teams are the same as the bottom half around the country but the higher you go in the percentiles, the more distance the Michigan teams put between them and the rest of the country. I am far from unbiased on this matter but I think it is true.

You have brought up an interesting point here. It seems that a by product of the Michigan District system is an overall higher level of teams coming out of the State. I haven't seen any events with scores that can even compare to those of MSC. Teams are coming out of the Michigan District System with between 40 and 60 Matches on their records, before the Championship, while most Teams are lucky if they play that many matches in 2 or 3 seasons. I'd say a large portion of the success of Michigan Teams at the Championship will be because of this experience..

[ALTrammell818]

Assuming the HoT #67 manages to keep the number 1 seed (I have not heard since 7 this morning). I believe they will pick 469 and get a decline. They will then pick either 217, 27, 33, or 910. 469 will then pick 217 if available and if not pick one of the other 4. Then after all is said and done they will pick a powerhouse defense. Juggernauts anyone? Or the team at Troy whose number I can't remember that simply had to nudge a robot to flip them right over (not supporting flipping just saying, that 6 wheel drive bot had some major push).

The point is, if they can break the cycle quickly, they can beat 469. The only hard part is in fact breaking that cycle or keeping it from happening.

The best way to beat them is to block the tunnel in autonomous and wait until the balls from auton come back down the ball return, then leave and go play a real 3v3 game. If 469 doesn't have the initial cycle it becomes very slightly more difficult for them to walk all over the competition.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by ALTrammell818

Assuming the HoT #67 manages to keep the number 1 seed (I have not heard since 7 this morning). I believe they will pick 469 and get a decline. They will then pick either 217, 27, 33, or 910. 469 will then pick 217 if available and if not pick one of the other 4.

I haven't seen a ton of Michigan matches, but is 67 significantly worse than the other 4? If not, then I don't see why 469 would decline their invitation. I would be very very surprised if they declined 67.

[ALTrammell818]

67 is an absolute beast however something tells me that 469 would rather stick to having 217 on their side.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by ALTrammell818

67 is an absolute beast however something tells me that 469 would rather stick to having 217 on their side.

Do you think 217 would be around for 469 to pick as the 4th seed?

[ALTrammell818]

Hmm now that they results are posted.

1918 picks 469 - accept
67 picks 33 - accept
573 picks 27 or 217 - accept
70 picks the leftover or 910 - accept
1718 picks leftover - accept

just my thoughts. All powerhouse scorers will be gone fast.

[ttldomination]

Well the Alliance are as follows:

1918 2834 469
573 1023 51
2612 67 217
33 1718 308
2619 226 2337
2137 70 910
2771 397 1711
201 27 703

Personally, I think that 67, 217 and 2612 will take this one. No disrespect to the first seed, but I saw 217 steal balls from 469, and this time, they can just get it one zone over, where 67 will be eagerly waiting to score.

Nice props to 201 and 27 getting together and 33 1718 are also a force to be reckoned with.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by thefro526

You have brought up an interesting point here. It seems that a by product of the Michigan District system is an overall higher level of teams coming out of the State. I haven't seen any events with scores that can even compare to those of MSC. Teams are coming out of the Michigan District System with between 40 and 60 Matches on their records, before the Championship, while most Teams are lucky if they play that many matches in 2 or 3 seasons. I'd say a large portion of the success of Michigan Teams at the Championship will be because of this experience..

I still say we don't have nearly enough unbiased data to make this claim. Michigan has always been tremendously successful because of the caliber of teams from the state (stemming from incredible sponsors, teachers, and mentors concentrated in that area). See this thread I wrote after championship.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I still say we don't have nearly enough unbiased data to make this claim. Michigan has always been tremendously successful because of the caliber of teams from the state (stemming from incredible sponsors, teachers, and mentors concentrated in that area). See this thread I wrote after championship.

I agree with Sean here. The number of matches does play a part in how well these teams perform. But even in the early district events, Michigan teams (not just the top dogs we all talk about) were putting up numbers and performing well enough to be top contenders at any other regional. There are "lower end" robots in Michigan who could easily take down alliances from other regionals or put up significant fights.

[waialua359]

A big part for the higher ranking scores is they way they are playing.
I dont see much defense played at all.
Either 1 or 2 teams in the home zone and either 1 or 2 teams in the middle.
I saw a lot of alliances leaving the far zone empty with the mentality that we will outscore you, IMO. A true coopertition strategy in the race to the top of the rankings.
For many that ARE playing defense, they are doing things that a real goalie would never do. Thus, ineffective.

The bold prediction of Einstein will depend a lot on where teams are placed in the divisions at CMP. It'll be very highly anticipated in addition to Looking Forward's post.

[hektormagee]

Originally Posted by ALTrammell818

Then after all is said and done they will pick a powerhouse defense. Juggernauts anyone? Or the team at Troy whose number I can't remember that simply had to nudge a robot to flip them right over (not supporting flipping just saying, that 6 wheel drive bot had some major push).

It was 2137. The reason why they were so amazingly powerful was they slightly offset their wheels by a quarter of an inch so that the middle one was slightly lower, allowing for easier turning. They also had about 100 pounds AND the battery in the first half of the robot. That made for easy bump traversing and absolutely insane pushing power. P.S. I loved their little indicator flag for when the kicker was pulled back. very smart, simple, and entertaining idea

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Joe,
It seems that a by product of the Michigan District system is an overall higher level of teams coming out of the State.

Correlation is not causeality. Please investigate years prior to the district system and look at how many Michigan teams performed above average in the championships before suggesting that the /newly/ formed district structure is a cause of Michigan being so competitive.

[Basel A]

With only one year to judge upon, I think it's impossible to be able to ascertain if the district system is making a difference, nor to expect it to make a large difference in its first year. It'll take a little time before most teams in Michigan are unaffected by how things are done out-of-state.