Feeding VS. Throwing tubes into Play?

[dvader109]

I was wondering what people thought the best way to put the tubes into play and what the advantages and disadvantages would be. Post Back

[JamesCH95]

I know you're on a rookie team, but what do YOU think the advantages and disadvantages are? It will be helpful if you come up with your own answers and reasoning to discuss with users on CD instead of soliciting answers for such a general question.

[Nick Lawrence]

Personally, I think it's almost silly to throw a tube over the wall because you risk losing that tube, unless you throw it right in front of your robot (in the lane in front of you, par example.)

It really depends on where your robot is, in relation to the other robots on the field.

Summary: Only throw if you're guaranteed to retrieve it with your robot.

Just my $0.02 CDN.

-Nick

[Gdkoopa]

I think throwing the game pieces into play could have a major advantage in saving time by not having the robot come all the way back across the field to the feeder slot to retrieve a game piece. Of course their are issues such as picking it up, throwing it accurately and such. But if one were to really practice this tactic it could prove to be a definite time saving advantage.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

Personally, I think it's almost silly to throw a tube over the wall because you risk losing that tube, unless you throw it right in front of your robot (in the lane in front of you, par example.)

What about throwing the tube across the field? In '07, human players could easily hit the rack with a strong throw, likewise, I don't think it'll take too much to get the tube to the tubes a way past the half way mark.

- Sunny

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

What about throwing the tube across the field? In '07, human players could easily hit the rack with a strong throw, likewise, I don't think it'll take too much to get the tube to the tubes a way past the half way mark.

- Sunny

In 2007 there were red tubes for the red alliance, and blue tubes for the blue alliance. In this game either alliance can use pieces that are thrown onto the field. This is a big argument against throwing them.

[Saqtown]

Each team gets 18 inflatables and if an alliance decides to ignore the bottom row, than that leaves an extra 6 inflatables. That would mean that there would only be a 2/3 recovery rate required to score 86.6% of the max points from the pegs. That doesn't seem to unreasonable to me....

if you throw the game piece out of bounds does anyone know what happens?

[zfadness]

Originally Posted by Saqtown

Each team gets 18 inflatables and if an alliance decides to ignore the bottom row, than that leaves an extra 6 inflatables. That would mean that there would only be a 2/3 recovery rate required to score 86.6% of the max points from the pegs. That doesn't seem to unreasonable to me....

if you throw the game piece out of bounds does anyone know what happens?

It is put back into play nearest where it went out.

I'd say if you had a fetcher of any kind on your alliance, it would be a good idea to consider throwing.

[Saqtown]

If your actually thowing it would mean that you would need to refocus the design of a fetcher. Since their total travel would be in the environs of 20ft rather than 50ft the focus would have to shift a lot towards picking up the game peice and on turning around.

IMO if they have no defensive player a fetcher becomes useless in such a scenario since 20 ft is such a short distance the "scorer" robots would come out and pick up the game peices themselves.

just my rookie opinion...

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Saqtown

if you throw the game piece out of bounds does anyone know what happens?

I know, because I read the rules:

<G36> GAME PIECES may not be intentionally placed out of bounds. Violation: PENALTY and YELLOW CARD

Don't wildly throw GAME PIECES about, lest your strategy be deemed "intentionally placing" them out.

Accidents are accidents. But too many accidents, and it looks like it was planned. Or at least not enough care being taken to avoid tossing GAME PIECES out.

[JamesCH95]

If a fetcher team wanted to be slick they'd have their robot able to carry and "hand off" tubes at the same height as the player station. It'd be a shame to not be able to get the tube to a great scorer because the tube was on the ground.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

If a fetcher team wanted to be slick they'd have their robot able to carry and "hand off" tubes at the same height as the player station. It'd be a shame to not be able to get the tube to a great scorer because the tube was on the ground.

According to the rule G49, this would be illegal - assuming that this would be some sort of direct hand off. (Fetcher Holds Tube, Scorer Grabs Tube, Fetcher Releases Tube).

<G49> ROBOTS may not attempt to POSSESS a GAME PIECE that is being POSSESSED by
another ROBOT.
Violation: PENALTY

I was hoping that this would be amended to allow the passing of game pieces between Alliance Partners, but it hasn't happened yet, so I wouldn't count on it.

[JamesCH95]

You're right, I was assuming the spirit of the rule was to prevent malicious stealing of tubes, but the letter of the rule forbids this obvious cooperative strategy.

[Nathan Streeter]

Whether to throw or feed a tube is entirely dependent on the situation, and not on some general rules... yet for some reason, I try to make general rules... :-)

Please understand that I talk about averages and approximations... an average implies that within that group there are deviations above and below in approximately equal frequency! Approximations are non-exact and based off of educated guess, not omniscient fore-knowledge.

Comparison to Other Games
This year will not be like '06 or '07 or '09 when the majority of teams simply threw game pieces out in the hopes of scoring them, or at least flooding the field with game pieces to allow easy pick-up. The scoring grid is simply too far away to score pieces (with more than 5% likelihood), the robot can possess only one game piece (same in '07), and alliances are going to compete over a relatively limited game piece supply.

Scoring Assumptions
The game piece supply is exactly the same as the number of tubes on the rack... Your alliance has 18 tubes to score on 18 pegs. By referencing our scouting data from '07 and assuming that scoring will of similar or lesser difficulty, I think that during teleop the bottom 50% of teams will, on average, score <1.5 tubes per match, the top 25% will score ~3 tubes per match, the top 10% ~4, and the top 2% ~5. I think these numbers may be a little high at early regionals, and may be a little low at late regionals.

Impact of These Scoring Assumptions on Game
Based on these scoring approximations, the average match will probably include about 5-7 scored tubes per alliance, during teleop. An exceptionally strong alliance could put up an average of 15 tubes. (That assumes three top 2% teams... who are unlikely to be at the same regional, let alone on the same alliance!). Essentially, these 18 scoring pegs will probably be less than 2/3 full for 98% of the matches.

The fact that there will be plenty of empty pegs means that you can lose about 1/3 of your tube supply to your opponents, without running out of tubes to score!

When to Throw, When Not to Throw!
It's easier to come up with a list of don't's, so I'll start with that. :-) *Note, "you" can apply to you or your alliance partners!
- Don't throw a tube toward midfield if you are currently scoring or otherwise occupied!
- Don't throw a tube toward midfield if you can't pick-up from the floor.
- Don't throw a tube toward midfield if your opponents are waiting for you to do so.

Alright, lets see some "Do's" that are converse (on inverse or contra-positive... I can't remember!) to our list of "Don'ts"
- Throw the tube toward midfield if your opponents are otherwise occupied.
- Throw the tube toward midfield if you are ready to pick it up from the floor.
- Throw the tube toward midfield if you can handle losing that tube to your opponents.
- Throw the tube toward midfield if you can pick-up and score that tube faster than your opponents.

Conclusion (Finally!)
So, judging this list of Do's and Don't's, it'll be more common for the stronger teams to throw the tubes out, as they will almost always be better able to get the tube than an opponent that will be lurking nearby, but it will benefit those who can afford to do it, because they can avoid driving down most of the field! Yes, it is risky, but life is not normally lived risk-free... the way to come out on top despite such risks is to take the risks that can provide large gains at low likelihood.

Looks like the HP will need good judgment... maybe even some assistance from the Analyst! :-)

[MCahoon]

So I will ask the question that I have not seen discussed on any other thread.

How does the analyst communicate to the HP when they are on opposite ends of the field, looking through two sheets of polycarb with various field elements and robots blocking parts of the field of view?