Why Windriver?

[davidthefat]

Why? I want to know why FIRST chose Windriver. Is it because of marketing deals? It's restricted by licensing agreements. Why can't aren't 3rd party IDEs like CodeBlocks officially supported? CodeBlocks is flexible; it supports lots of compilers from GCC to TurboC++. I don't see a problem having the specific compiler for the cRio to work with CodeBlocks. I believe that the Open Source softwares are better fit for FIRST's mission than a company that owns proprietary software. NetBeans is open source, which is good. One reason why my team is not using C++ is the fact that WindRiver is a pain. Same goes for LabView... I personally think this competition needs to step away from specific companies to a wide variety of companies. Like having an option for an ARM based processor instead of cRio, or an AVR based. Yes I know the issue of "standardization" and "safely communicating". They can go the extra mile to support other hardware. Its not that radical of an idea.

Edit: Also why not Linux in replacement for VxWorks?


Oh I will be releasing our source code online later in the season.

[sjspry]

Yeah, it kinda bugs me I can't program the cRIO from my Linux computer with C++ (I have to use Java, which I guess isn't that bad).


FIRST probably doesn't have a good reason for the choice. When FIRST was created or as it progressed, companies would jump at the chance to get people -- not working for a profit -- to use their products. There's also some people who actually believe anything 3rd party is not to be trusted.

I think part of your question, though, deals with what the cRIO can be... er... fundamentally programmed(?) with. I just tried looking really quick, but it seems like VxWorks is what is locked on there as per National Instruments. This is probably the big stumbling block on the road to using other compilers, as it would make sense to believe there's a few libraries that need to be linked in (you could probably get it working, though, it might just be "illegal").

I do not, however, assume FIRST and the competition could be possible without the cRIO. I haven't found a good platform to substitute in for it, and as long as we're using the cRIO, provided by National Instruments, we're probably going to have to use a whole lot of other proprietary software.

On a personal note, I myself am rather irked by how closed the cRIO and the general development process seems. I've had a hell of a time getting around NIVision (and had to end up connecting the Camera to the bridge to get anything done...).

[andreboos]

Originally Posted by sjspry

Yeah, it kinda bugs me I can't program the cRIO from my Linux computer with C++ (I have to use Java, which I guess isn't that bad)

I've extended another user's toolchain (can't find the post) for compiling, linking, and deploying code to the cRIO on Linux (including WPILib). It's not polished, user-friendly, or advanced enough from the original toolchain (works with 2011 WPILib though) enough to seem worth posting to CD as a separate release, but if you're interested I can link you to our repository.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Why? I want to know why FIRST chose Windriver.

Wind River is providing a complete, highly integrated, software development, runtime, and debug environment.
At NO cost to FIRST teams.
And you simply dismiss it because you can't use your latest gee-whiz-this-is-so-cool 'free' IDE of the week?

When your brain feels full, that doesn't mean you know everything.

[Greg McKaskle]

Wow. Where to start.

WindRiver is the supplied C++ tool because VxWorks is the realtime OS that has been used on the cRIO for the last ten years. Targeting a piece of HW is a bit harder than choosing how you type text and where the compile button is located. The libraries and drivers for supporting the hardware have been engineered by WindRiver to be far more realtime than what you will find on desktop OSes. This is a huge investment, and is why VxWorks is highly regarded as a realtime OS vendor. The landscape is constantly changing, but NI chose to use VxWorks because it made our customers happy and allowed the cRIO perform tasks it otherwise couldn't.

It is possible to use other code tools to target the VxWorks environment, and at NI, many of the developers subset the IDE, using only the command line or using the IDE for source, but not the debugger, etc. It is a matter of preference and efficiency. When your paycheck and your coworker's paycheck depend on getting the job done, you need to learn to evaluate what each element brings to the table. What are the good and bad aspects of different tools, etc. If something irks you, but works well, more than likely, you change your habits rather than the tool. Also, it is an ongoing evaluation. You always look around for the thing that will let you do more, do it better, or do it faster.

Is OpenSource an option? Absolutely. If you go to ni.com/linux, you will see a listing of products we offer. Also, some open source libs are amazing and are incorporated into NI products. LV extended and has shipped the Mesa OpenGL engine for twelve or so years, as an example. But again, choosing an OS is a bit more complicated, and isn't a static decision. Linux is evolving and it may be an option in the future. I used free and open SW before GPL and other licensing manifestos came about, and I have to say that I preferred it without the strings. I'm not sure I understand how they made things better.

As for using more HW, you have options. FIRST lets you use coprocessors and circuits to enhance your robot. FIRST is also trying to make things a bit easier and a great deal safer, so elements such as the battery, motors, and safety are top priority. If/when there is a way to do that with other products, I suspect you'll see it. In the meantime, this is just part of the game -- same for all.

As for open source, I'm curious why open source tools are any better for FIRST than proprietary ones? Does gimp sponsor your regional? Does Linus Torvalds sponsor your team? It'd be cool if they did, but do you see my point? FIRST is one of the most effective organizations I've ever seen at organizing volunteers and getting things done for free, and I suspect they do things this way for a reason. Meanwhile, if you look into the licensing agreements of the tools in the kit, you will see the influence of open source. It is a real factor in the market today, but not in the "I will isolate myself and only use open source" sort of way.

Finally, as for LV, my guess is that you still haven't even tried it. If you are interested in computer science, I'll once again encourage you to take full advantage of the kit. Learn how to use generics in C++, objects in Java, and wires in LV. Also, learn how to use a multimeter, put on a chain, prove an algorithm, model the forces on an arm. Learn how to lose an argument without going to forums to complain about your team and mentors. Learn how to teach and be taught. Keep asking why, but make sure that you do it in a nice way.

Greg McKaskle

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Greg McKaskle

Wow. Where to start.

Wow. What a great post. Really !! Ought to be sticky'ed.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Greg McKaskle

...take full advantage of the kit. Learn...learn... Learn... Learn...in a nice way.

I'll add one more suggestion: avoid posting at 2:15 in the morning. It's too easy to lose one's grace at that hour.

[Joe Ross]

The I in FIRST stands for Inspiration. What is more inspiring, using a free IDE and compiler and a $50 AVR board that anybody can access, or using real tools that are used in industry? At my company, we use both LabVIEW and Windriver/vxworks extensively. While you might get exposure to one of those in college, FIRST is probably the only way for a high school student to be exposed to these professional tools.

You might be interested in Wikipedia's Notable Products using VxWorks, for example, the Boeing 787, Honda's ASIMO, and the Spirit and Opportunity Mars Rovers.

[tonystark_23]

Greg McKaskle, I salute you! And I for one thank National Instruments tremendously for all that they provide to FIRST (for free). FIRST wouldn't be the amazing program it is without you guys.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Greg McKaskle

Wow. Where to start.

WindRiver is the supplied C++ tool because VxWorks is the realtime OS that has been used on the cRIO for the last ten years. Targeting a piece of HW is a bit harder than choosing how you type text and where the compile button is located. The libraries and drivers for supporting the hardware have been engineered by WindRiver to be far more realtime than what you will find on desktop OSes. This is a huge investment, and is why VxWorks is highly regarded as a realtime OS vendor. The landscape is constantly changing, but NI chose to use VxWorks because it made our customers happy and allowed the cRIO perform tasks it otherwise couldn't.

It is possible to use other code tools to target the VxWorks environment, and at NI, many of the developers subset the IDE, using only the command line or using the IDE for source, but not the debugger, etc. It is a matter of preference and efficiency. When your paycheck and your coworker's paycheck depend on getting the job done, you need to learn to evaluate what each element brings to the table. What are the good and bad aspects of different tools, etc. If something irks you, but works well, more than likely, you change your habits rather than the tool. Also, it is an ongoing evaluation. You always look around for the thing that will let you do more, do it better, or do it faster.

Is OpenSource an option? Absolutely. If you go to ni.com/linux, you will see a listing of products we offer. Also, some open source libs are amazing and are incorporated into NI products. LV extended and has shipped the Mesa OpenGL engine for twelve or so years, as an example. But again, choosing an OS is a bit more complicated, and isn't a static decision. Linux is evolving and it may be an option in the future. I used free and open SW before GPL and other licensing manifestos came about, and I have to say that I preferred it without the strings. I'm not sure I understand how they made things better.

As for using more HW, you have options. FIRST lets you use coprocessors and circuits to enhance your robot. FIRST is also trying to make things a bit easier and a great deal safer, so elements such as the battery, motors, and safety are top priority. If/when there is a way to do that with other products, I suspect you'll see it. In the meantime, this is just part of the game -- same for all.

As for open source, I'm curious why open source tools are any better for FIRST than proprietary ones? Does gimp sponsor your regional? Does Linus Torvalds sponsor your team? It'd be cool if they did, but do you see my point? FIRST is one of the most effective organizations I've ever seen at organizing volunteers and getting things done for free, and I suspect they do things this way for a reason. Meanwhile, if you look into the licensing agreements of the tools in the kit, you will see the influence of open source. It is a real factor in the market today, but not in the "I will isolate myself and only use open source" sort of way.

Finally, as for LV, my guess is that you still haven't even tried it. If you are interested in computer science, I'll once again encourage you to take full advantage of the kit. Learn how to use generics in C++, objects in Java, and wires in LV. Also, learn how to use a multimeter, put on a chain, prove an algorithm, model the forces on an arm. Learn how to lose an argument without going to forums to complain about your team and mentors. Learn how to teach and be taught. Keep asking why, but make sure that you do it in a nice way.

Greg McKaskle

Ok where I was coming from is why must FIRST distribute a software with a license? The license expires soon after the competition. How can one practice if they do not even have access to the software? That is what troubles me. I rather have a pure command line interface that I can use anytime than a limited GUI IDE that I can use for only 3 months. I like how Netbeans does not need a license and that you can use it 365 days a year without any activation of any sort. I believe I miscommunicated my point. Sure I do have bold opinions and some of you are getting annoyed by it. Like I said before, I rather have kids question than follow with ignorance. Asking questions is the first step to new discoveries and if you withhold asking questions, you are stifling innovation and discovery.

[ebarker]

FIRST does not issue or manage the licenses. The licenses are held and manages by the IP owner. The licenses for WindRiver and Labview are for the full calendar year. Labview is a year plus a few days. A broad suite of professional grade software products is provided to FIRST students. The licenses are valid for a full year and in some cases three years.

Students can and do use these products the full calendar year without issue. These products are not limited but are fully capable and well beyond the capacity of most students and mentors knowledge and capability.

If you would take the time to install the products and actually read the license agreement then you will be much better prepared to make your point, whatever your point is.

If you will take the time to research the issue you will find a ton of professional grade titles available free or at a very reduced cost, for both high school AND college students. What is available today is stunning compared to 30 or even 10 years ago. You have an opportunity here to learn things that most of the population of the world has never had in history. Like Greg said, take advantage of these opportunities and learn all that you can about the products and about product design.

Asking questions is ok. Doing your research before asking the question is much better and will allow you to ask much more productive questions. It's much easier to ask a bold question if you have thoroughly researched your topic, otherwise it makes one look a little silly.

[Roger]

And Robo-COBOL! Why no Robo-COBOL? The punchcards alone made it CL!

So is it safe to say, "if you want it go ahead and write it -- the cRIO will take it"?

I had more, but everybody typed faster than me.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Edit: Also why not Linux in replacement for VxWorks?

FIRST is not in the software business. They have a different mission and vision.

If you are passionate about open source then you can help the community by not complaining but creating an alternate development environment.

You personally will have to pick up the torch and do the job. That is the way the open source environment works. Open source, volunteer driven, and you can lead the way.

Most of the work is already done for you, all you have to do is integrate it and support it. Under the hood the compilers are gcc cross compilers for power pc. You can download these build environments from many sources for free and host it on linux, windows, or mac boxes.

If you choose you can use an old style Make file for use an integrated IDE like eclipse, or another of your choosing.

enjoy

[davidalln]

I've had very little trouble with Windriver once it is set up. I think people are too quick to jump on software just because its trendy and open source. Proprietary software has its place. Here, Windriver works because of how closely integrated it is with vxWorks, which allows us students to work with an operating system that is easy to learn but, at the same time, is used in the real world. Also, it makes sure that any bugs in the system will be promptly solved by paid employees, as opposed to asking an open source community with no tangible stake in the development.

Plus, Windriver itself is an extension of Eclipse, the notable open source IDE. So almost all of the source of Windriver is online for anybody to see.

[StevenB]

Sure, if I was designing the FRC control system from the ground up with no restrictions, there are a lot of things I would do differently. But if an industry leader came to me and offered millions of dollars worth of hardware and software - hardware and software which is used by professional engineers in numerous settings - I'd find a way to make it work. And I believe that's what FIRST has done. It would be easy to criticize FIRST and suggest that they've sold out to NI or WindRiver, but the reality is that this kind of partnership is exactly their mission. Their goal is not to create an awesome robot control system, but rather to show high school students that engineering is an exciting and attainable career. If that includes using proprietary tools common in industry, then so be it.

I'm a big fan of open source. I run Linux on my desktop and use it almost exclusively. I've even helped write code for open-source projects. But I'm also a big fan of some proprietary software, including LabVIEW - and there's no way I would have gotten this experience apart from FIRST.

To take a quick example: In my university's electronics lab, we've got a set of standard lab equipment (Agilent multimeter, power supply, and waveform generator, Tektronix scope) with PCs running LabVIEW. Because I've been using LabVIEW since my FLL days eleven years ago, it was a simple matter to connect the equipment to the PC and create some cool VIs for my lab work. I can characterize motors, create Bode plots, test transistors, and a thousand other things - just by writing a simple VI. None of my classmates know how to do this; in fact, none of my professors know how to do this.

How many college students can say they've been using LabVIEW for eleven years?