Team Update, Rule #66

[TJ Cawley]

i was watching the Q & A and the GNC was asked how many tanks we can use to hold air. they responded by saying look at update 2. my question is, can someone ask how many tanks since the team update does not specify. and i quote
"<R66> In addition to the items included in the KOP, pneumatic system items specifically permitted on 2011 FRC ROBOTS include the following items. All included items must be “off the shelf” COTS pneumatic devices rated by their manufacturers for working pressure of at least 125psi and burst pressure of 250psi, and used in their original, unaltered condition (except as required for assembly with other components).
A. Pneumatic pressure vent plug valves functionally equivalent to those provided in the KOP,
B. Solenoid valves with a maximum 1⁄8” NPT port diameter, and a maximum Cv of 0.32 (if non-KOP valves are used, the team will be required to provide part documentation validating that the valves meet these constraints).
C. than 125psi rating mandated above are permitted, however if employed, an additional pressure relief valve must be added to the low pressure side of the main regulator. The additional relief valve must be set to a lower pressure than the maximum pressure rating for the solenoid valve.
January 14, 2010
D. Additional 0.160” inside diameter pneumatic tubing functionally equivalent to that provided in the KOP, with the pressure rating clearly factory-printed on the exterior of the tubing,
E. Pressure transducers, pressure gauges, and connecting fittings,
F. Pressure regulators with a maximum bypass pressure of no more than 60psi,
G. For the purposes of the FRC, a device that creates a vacuum is not considered to be a pneumatic device and are not subject to the pneumatic rules (although they must still satisfy all other appropriate rules). These include, but are not limited to; venturi-type vacuum generators and off-the-shelf vacuum devices (as long as they are powered by provided or permitted motors).
H. For the purposes of the FRC, closed-loop COTS pneumatic (gas) shocks are not considered pneumatic devices, and are not subject to the pneumatic rules (although they must still satisfy all other appropriate rules).
I. For the purposes of the FRC, air-filled (pneumatic) wheels are not considered pneumatic devices, and are not subject to the pneumatic rules (although they must still satisfy all other appropriate rules). J. Pneumatic cylinders. K. Pneumatic storage tanks."

[Dale]

We read that to mean you can have as many aproved storage tanks as you like.

[TJ Cawley]

Originally Posted by Dale

We read that to mean you can have as many aproved storage tanks as you like.

but if you build your robot to do everything with an enormous air supply, then close to build this FINALLY gets decided, and it gets cut down to the usual 4, or even worse one, you either try to redesign the bot because of that or you just go out to the competition with a scurry bot

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by TJ Cawley

but if you build your robot to do everything with an enormous air supply, then close to build this FINALLY gets decided, and it gets cut down to the usual 4, or even worse one, you either try to redesign the bot because of that or you just go out to the competition with a scurry bot

You appear to be biased by prior year's rules limiting the number of tanks to 4 and not reading what the rule actually says.

In addition to the items included in the KOP, pneumatic system items specifically permitted on 2011 FRC ROBOTS include the following items.....
....
K. Pneumatic Storage Tanks

This means that any pneumatic storage tank that costs less than $400, is rated to 125PSI working and 250PSI burst, and physically fits inside the robot starting volume constraints may be used. You may use as many as you can fit in your budget or on your robot, whichever is less.

[Bill_B]

We had air compressor equipment in the Air Force which featured air storage tanks as structural elements. Wondering now if Bimba makes tanks with flanges and brackets. Probably not a good idea to weld to any of them, right?

[Brian C]

Here's the latest from the GDC on the Q&A forums:

You may use any unmodified COTS storage tank as long as it meets the requirements defined in Rule <R66>.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16391

[TJ Cawley]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

You appear to be biased by prior year's rules limiting the number of tanks to 4 and not reading what the rule actually says.



This means that any pneumatic storage tank that costs less than $400, is rated to 125PSI working and 250PSI burst, and physically fits inside the robot starting volume constraints may be used. You may use as many as you can fit in your budget or on your robot, whichever is less.

but what if they do regulate it and you overuse pneumatics? the risk is yours, but i started this so someone eligible to post in the Q & A could ask seein as im not an 18 year old member. we want to know HOW MANY tanks we can use, seeing as it is not revealling

[bladetech932]

If we ask we will get the same answer as you got!
You can use as many as you want as long as it fits the specs Vikesrock mentioned.

Jon

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by TJ Cawley

but what if they do regulate it and you overuse pneumatics? the risk is yours, but i started this so someone eligible to post in the Q & A could ask seein as im not an 18 year old member. we want to know HOW MANY tanks we can use, seeing as it is not revealling

Then you have every right to be angry with them for capriciously springing a new rule on you late in the build season.* That's a risk with anything: they could lower the permitted bumper weight to 15 lb (like it used to be, in at least one previous year) on ship day. But why design for that possibility when they've explicitly said otherwise?

*FIRST usually knows better than to do things like that....

[thefro526]

It seems that the rules allow for a theoretically unlimited amount of Air Tanks as long as they do not violate any other rules.

If you're truly afraid that this may change, then let me propose this solution:

Design your robot to work with 4 Air Tanks and a compressor as allowed in previous years, then add as many air tanks above the 4 as you want to allow for a greater amount of stored air. If the GDC comes out later on during build or competition season and reduces the amount of air tanks allowed on the robot then you'll be able to run with the new limit (assuming the GDC would go down to 4 tanks sized like previous year's tanks) because you designed to work with that minimum.

[implosionprez]

Team 2484 asked about the maximum number of storage tanks. This just in from the GDC on the FIRST Forums:

Team Update #2 makes doesn't give a limit to the number of pneumatic storage tanks a team can use. This makes it sound like teams can use an unlimited number of storage tanks on the hostbot. Is this true?

GDC: Correct, there is no explicit limit on volume of stored air permitted on the ROBOT.

[TJ Cawley]

Originally Posted by implosionprez

Team 2484 asked about the maximum number of storage tanks. This just in from the GDC on the FIRST Forums:

thanks. that is what i was wondering. i didnt want our team overloading on air before this was speicified.

[madgokart]

i have a question about the motors..........i was wondering if we can use them this year?

2011 motors part number-AM802-001A
PM25R-45F-1003
12VDC PM25R
101810

2010 motors part number-FR801-001
12-VdC
100807

[EricH]

Originally Posted by madgokart

i have a question about the motors..........i was wondering if we can use them this year?

2011 motors part number-AM802-001A
PM25R-45F-1003
12VDC PM25R
101810

2010 motors part number-FR801-001
12-VdC
100807

Check <R45-C>, as amended by Update #1. I see two part numbers in there that exactly match the ones you provided here. Therefore, they are exceptions to <R46> and may be used in competition.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by TJ Cawley

thanks. that is what i was wondering. i didnt want our team overloading on air before this was speicified.

By the way, TJ, your lead mentor (and any assigned alternate) has access to your team's Q&A login and password via their TIMS account. They login and its on one of the very first pages. That way your team can ask any questions it needs to, and you don't need to rely on Chief Delphi members for answers from the GDC.