Gracious Professionalism VS Competition

[NyCityKId]

I've seen a few threads on CD and the FIRST forum that got me thinking. Lately Ive been wondering how compatible Gracious Professionalism and Competition are. I think some people start to forget that while we are expected to act graciously and professionally, FIRST Robotics Competition is still a competition. For example I saw a post on the first forums about passing a tube back to an opposing alliance member who dropped it. Even though this is extremely sportsman-like I can't help feeling that this is a little backwards. Then there is the fact that the GDC had to update the manual to say that it is against the rules to score on an opposing alliance's scoring grid. These, along with a few other threads which I wont mention for the sake of attention spans, make me wonder whether people are actually taking gracious professionalism too far. So what do you think?

[Chris is me]

I'm pretty sure the post you're referencing is about passing a tube to another alliance partner - not to an opponent.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by NyCityKId

These, along with a few other threads which I wont mention for the sake of attention spans, make me wonder whether people are actually taking gracious professionalism too far. So what do you think?

How can the world we live in have too many people who act in a gracious or professional manner? That would be a problem I would love to have.

As for the implied statement that competition and GP are incompatible, I will tell you what I tell my students before every event: I want to win, but I want to beat my opponent when they are at their best. Not, because they weren't running as well as they should. If there is something we can do to help our opponent out, we should do everything in our power to help them.How else can we find out how good we are or where we need to personally improve?

[NyCityKId]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I'm pretty sure the post you're referencing is about passing a tube to another alliance partner - not to an opponent.

There was a thread on passing tubes to alliance partners but then I distinctly remember a post mentioning an opposing alliance robot dropping a tube and the other alliance giving it back to them. I may be wrong and i would rather not directly point out the post but I'm pretty sure...

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

How can the world we live in have too many people who act in a gracious or professional manner? That would be a problem I would love to have.

As for the implied statement that competition and GP are incompatible, I will tell you what I tell my students before every event: I want to win, but I want to beat my opponent when they are at their best. Not, because they weren't running as well as they should. If there is something we can do to help our opponent out, we should do everything in our power to help them.How else can we find out how good we are or where we need to personally improve?

Please don't misunderstand me. I am all for GP and I wholeheartedly believe in it. If another team is having a problem, I know there isn't a soul on my team who wouldn't jump up to help as best they can, including me. I just think it might be a little to much to directly help an opponent during a match.
To be honest I'm a little conflicted within. Helping an opponent off the field is one thing but to aid them during a match where the whole point is to win (graciously and professionally albeit) seems like one may be taking gracious professionalism too far. I'll put it this way: lets say that a robot on the opposing alliance shuts down because the battery wasn't charged prior to the match. The moment the battery dies, the claw/grabber mechanism goes dead and drops a tube that they would've been able to hang had their battery held out. Would it be in the spirit of gracious professionalism to hang the tube for them (assuming its not against the rules)?

[rsegrest]

First let me state that I agree with the GP off the field and to a large degree on the field as well.

"The moment the battery dies, the claw/grabber mechanism goes dead and drops a tube that they would've been able to hang had their battery held out. Would it be in the spirit of gracious professionalism to hang the tube for them (assuming its not against the rules)?"

Your above quote refers (at least to me) to the 'coopertition' points that they instituted last year or the year before to keep strong alliances from racking up triple digit scores against much weaker alliances and then bragging about it (at least IMO that's why they may have done it). By the same token I don't think you should score points for your opponent to try and earn the 'coopertition' points. I want to see a great match. I don't want to see one team target another to flip their bot just because they can (I have seen it happen).

"I want to win, but I want to beat my opponent when they are at their best. Not, because they weren't running as well as they should. If there is something we can do to help our opponent out, we should do everything in our power to help them.How else can we find out how good we are or where we need to personally improve?"

Ditto totally...

[Hawiian Cadder]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

How can the world we live in have too many people who act in a gracious or professional manner? That would be a problem I would love to have.

As for the implied statement that competition and GP are incompatible, I will tell you what I tell my students before every event: I want to win, but I want to beat my opponent when they are at their best. Not, because they weren't running as well as they should. If there is something we can do to help our opponent out, we should do everything in our power to help them.How else can we find out how good we are or where we need to personally improve?

agree 100% the game is not fun without a little competition, i would be glad to give our opponents help off the field, and to some extent not exploit their weakness in strategy or design. better to win for real than because the other team had something stupid happen.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I'm going to give you my two cents on this topic in a pretty simple way. I will help you (and love your help) off the field but when we are across the field from each other you OWE me your best. Don't you dare pull any punches, don't expect me to either. Leave it all on the field and may the best bot win.

[pfreivald]

+1 on the previous post. Competition is a driver for gracious professionalism, and you owe it to your opponent to try your best to spank their little bottoms while on the field of play! (And likewise.)

[dodar]

GP and Competition together is symbiotic. I wanna dominate you during our match but when we get back to the pits, I would try my hardest to make sure that you can overcome our match and dominate the rest of yours.

[Andrew Y.]

Originally Posted by Hawiian Cadder

agree 100% the game is not fun without a little competition, i would be glad to give our opponents help off the field, and to some extent not exploit their weakness in strategy or design. better to win for real than because the other team had something stupid happen.

im playing devils advocate. exploiting their weakness is strategy... If you don't show them their flaw in design, then how are they to learn it was a flaw?

I honestly think sometimes we get a little TOO GP around FIRST. I agree with the above few posts, spank em on the field...but the pits are not a place for compeition

[xSAWxBLADEx]

Originally Posted by Andrew Y.

im playing devils advocate. exploiting their weakness is strategy... If you don't show them their flaw in design, then how are they to learn it was a flaw?

I honestly think sometimes we get a little TOO GP around FIRST.

WOW....THATS HARSH....i would be the first one to say i want a blue banner but im also the first (maybe second) one on chief delphi telling rookie teams (even some vetern teams) there designs wont work and how they could change it....i just think that comment was very unneeded and just totally against every thing Dean Kamen wants for his program of F.I.R.S.T.

[LLogan]

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

WOW....THATS HARSH....i would be the first one to say i want a blue banner but im also the first (maybe second) one on chief delphi telling rookie teams (even some vetern teams) there designs wont work and how they could change it....i just think that comment was very unneeded and just totally against every thing Dean Kamen wants for his program of F.I.R.S.T.

I'm pretty sure you're taking his quote out of context. Consider a team that doesn't post on Chief Delphi (like 80-90% of FRC teams) and creates a robot with what many would consider a flawed design. There is no way they would know it was a flawed design until the competition, where other teams would exploit the design to its advantage.

E.g. A team only powers two wheels and uses two casters in place of wheels. Your bot has more pushing force than it. In the competition, will you push it around while it's trying to block you? Or will you gingerly avoid trying to "explot" the flaw?

Now, if said team were to make a post on Chief Delphi about its design and/or ask local teams to help with the design, he would almost surely oblige.

Sorry if I am answering for Andrew... but FWIW 2415 is a very GP team from my personal experience.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

lol i love how you put the comment about 2 wheels and ball casters (we are using 4) but thank you for clearing it up cause he stated that post the worst way possible...sorry andrew

[GGCO]

I agree that, at times, these two ideas seem to conflict with each other. However I think that there is a healthy balance that can be found.

First, a competition is only interesting when you compete against another evenly matched team and you both play at your best. So in the interest of a great competition, teams should attempt to help other teams out.

However, once teams compete on the field the gloves should go off! It's totally fair to exploit design flaws in the other bot just like it's fair to exploit strategic and tactical errors made by the other teams. I owe this to my opponent and they owe this to me. Anything less is not fair.

Where things become blurry are:
1. Designs - if we have a great design idea during build season should we share it with everyone?
2. Strategy at games - I know I said exploit this, but do you go out of your way and give advice to EVERY team in the competition? Or should you let them figure out the optimal way to play the game for themselves?

To go full circle, there is a line between GP and intense competition. The debate is just where exactly is that line.

[SirTasty]

Originally Posted by ZonChau

I find it more specifically, the rule penalizes "weak" defensive robots. No offense but if the team's robot is unable to properly defend then the robot isn't much of a defensive robot.

You get ranking points based on how many points your opponents score. If your opponent never scores, you get no ranking points. Ergo, an undefeated defensive team is ranked lower than an undefeated offensive team. The rule penalizes ALL defensive robots.

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Just remember: all teams are defeatable. Remember the 1980 Winter Olympics; America, the underdogs, beat the Soviet Union's undefeated hockey team.

That was a great movie.

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Another note: sportsmanship and competition go hand and hand. In any sport, whether it is football or track and field. As the ball is snapped, you pound the guy across you and drive him until he is on his butt. After the whistle blows, you help him on his feet; repeat every down.

You deserve like nine thousand internets for this. I'll just rep you and put that in my sig.