Will this year's game be a war of attrition?

[martin417]

As I look at posted robot pictures, I begin to worry about robot longevity this year. The parts provided in the KOP, if used as-is, will produce a ~16 FPS robot. I see that most teams are gearing for around that same speed, either using shifting transmissions or the KOP parts. In the past, kit-bots, and most non kit bots have been geared for between 9 and 12 fps. In other words the robots will be very fast this year.

Defense near the home zone will be dangerous due to team update #6, so expect VIGOROUS defense around midfield.

Team update #9 adds:

High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended mechanisms.

Most of the robot pictures I have seen posted show mechanisms outside the frame perimeter. By the end of any given regional, I would not be surprised to see a significant proportion of those robots with no usable manipulator.

Team updtae #9 also added:

A ROBOT with a mechanism outside of its BUMPER PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that MECHANISM to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER. Regardless of intent, a ROBOT with a MECHANISM outside its BUMPER PERIMETER that causes damage to another ROBOT inside of its FRAME PERIMETER will be penalized.
Repeated or egregious violations of this rule will earn the offending ROBOT a YELLOW CARD.

This is one of the reasons our team probably will not attempt to pick up a tube from the floor. As it now stands, no part of our robot ever extends outside the frame perimeter. (except during end-game)

In the finals, it may turn out that the last robot still working is the winner.

I'm not Car Nack, but I am hereby predicting mayhem.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by martin417

As I look at posted robot pictures, I begin to worry about robot longevity this year. The parts provided in the KOP, if used as-is, will produce a ~16 FPS robot.

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

[Chexposito]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

teams aquire this speed relatively easily and quickly, we did this with the additional weight of the bumpers and minibot. we did this speed with a 150 lb robot in like week 2 in less than 20 feet...

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

The field is ~50 feet long. With a two-speed transmission, coming from the feeder station with a full head of steam, I expect a well made robot to be approaching that speed by midfield. One strategy to avoid defense is speed. if a robot comes screaming out of its lane, heading towards the home zone at ~16 FPS, any robot that gets in the way does so at its own peril. And don't assume 120 LB.s The robot weighs in at 120, the battery 10, the bumpers another 20, and up to 15 for the minibot gives a max weight of 165 Lb. or 75 Kg. At 15 FPS (4.6 M/s), you will have 616 ft-lb (835 N-M) of energy, all dissipated in milliseconds. Even if you don't have anything outside your frame perimeter, that is a lot of energy to absorb without damage.

[Vikesrock]

Absolutely, robots with shifters can certainly reach 15-16 FPS. My point was that the KOP bot will not if it weighs anywhere near 120 without battery bumpers and minibot.

If I did the math right the KOP setup (at 148lbs total) will take over 100 ft. to accelerate to top speed. Adding an additional pair of CIMs still puts it at over 60ft. to reach its top speed.

[Matt C]

"Back in the day, we didn't have those weenie bumpers!"

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Matt C

"Back in the day, we didn't have those weenie bumpers!"

Yea.... When Robots were Robots. Metal against Metal. Puts a big smile on my face also

[gren737]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

Yea.... When Robots were Robots. Metal against Metal. Puts a big smile on my face also

count me in this camp!!

Part of the process is designing a robust robot...always has been. First seemed to work quite successfully without bumpers for many years...I would personally love to see it go back (or at least give teams the option of with or without)

[sdcantrell56]

The ideas in this thread are the exact ideas that lead us to build a trooper that will only be extended out for the 1 second or so that were actually acquiring a tube. After that its well inside the frame perimeter as is the tube. Should be fun seeing who built anticipating the large impacts.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56

Should be fun seeing who built anticipating the large impacts.

This used to be such a HUGE part of FIRST back before bumpers. It's been discussed a hundred times already, but the "robustness" category has slipped further and further down the priority list for many teams because of the addition of bumpers.

Obviously this isn't a terrible thing, its just funny how we're sitting here discussing today how ground loading isn't smart because your appendage might get hit (most likely by a bumper). Back in the day, you kinda had to assume everything you built would be whacked, hooked, grabbed or whatever else it may be!

-Brando

[Koko Ed]

2008 was a war of attrition for both the robots and the field.
By the end of the off seasons the field was barely able to hold together after so many competitions with robots slamming full speed into the sides so hard.

[Tom Line]

I suspect that BB (before bumpers) taught people basic robustness practices much more quickly than our somewhat toned-down game we have now.

Every year I see dozens of robots that make me shake my head. No strain relief on the wires (and there should be strain relief of some sort on EVERY wire). Sensors and other fragile components out where they can be easily ripped off or destroyed. Uncovered motor tabs on FP's.

For instance, this year, you already know you're going to see dozens of banebots motors on the arms with their motor tabs exposed for all the word to bash at (and short out). Likewise with the multitude of forklift style bots, you're going to see a ton of loose wire flying about just asking to get yanked.

That still doesn't make me want to return to the no-bumper bots of yesteryear though.

[Brandon Holley]

Regarding picking up from the floor:

Maybe in midfield it's a risky proposition, but picking up tubes in your scoring zone or human player lanes seems like a no brainer to me. You're protected from being touched in those areas.

-Brando

[Jared Russell]

There will be some big hits, that's for sure. We will be bringing many spare manipulators to competition for this reason. We will also be devoting a large share of time this week and with our practice bot to train the operator to get the manipulator out of the way as quickly as possible.

[MrForbes]

For those robots with a long arm, I wonder how it will work driving around with the arm sticking almost straight up? There's the fun thing about the CG being relatively high, and the robot wanting to fall over during sudden maneuvers...and you have to watch out for minibot towers...and other robots with stuff sticking out up high. Especially if you're possessing a game piece.

I'm thinking our decision to use mostly all locally available materials, and a few bolts and rivets to hold it all together, might be a good decision.