Another Culture Change

[JVN]

Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking about this for a long time. I heard some horrible, interesting stories from the Pittsburgh regional this past weekend which helped solidify my thoughts.

I managed to put these thoughts into words here:
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/anoth...re-change.html

I hope you'll take a minute to read, reflect, and hopefully join me in helping to shift OUR culture.

-John

[rcmolloy]

I know John that at the bottom of the "haters" message you attached, I mentioned how I envied your team and the status your "TEAM" puts themselves at. You even said in the message that the robot is a student-mentor collaboration and together you complete the best thing that your resources can. Which actually is one hell of a good machine that people believe is created solely by mentors and not students.

Something like this just really pisses me off because kids aren't putting in the effort to try and be like 148, 1114, and multiple other teams. It seems like jealousy is a large part of today's society and it is just ridiculous to see this happen while gracious professionalism is the most apparent lesson to be learned.

Like a typical sport or game played, students and other teams should want to beat the team on the field and not anywhere else. The only way to do that is to look at the great teams that we see today. Learning about what they did and created will give you a huge advantage every year. I know John and the Robowranglers are even gracious enough to give out their final CADs every year so that teams can take them as reference.

If you have nothing good to say about the other teams then don't. If anything, you should be asking them for help and assistance during the competition.

Thank you for posting this John.

[Zach O]

Excellent post, JVN. It's absolutely disgusting that things like this would happen in an organization such as FIRST, which preaches "Professionalism in everything we do." It's a shame that teams cannot be happy for one another - enjoy seeing your teammates winning (there's a chance 1114 was on an alliance with at least some of these teams at some point in time during the Pittsburgh regional), and hoping they would do the same for you.

I'm not in FIRST because it's easy. No one said that one day we will arrive at St. Louis and they'll have a banner waiting for us at the stadium. That we could simply build a robot, go through the season, and win Worlds. You win Worlds by innovation. You win Worlds by determination. You win Worlds by engineering a robot so solid, that it successfully completes the game. This is for the "haters" JVN refers to in his other blog post. I'm still confused why some teams don't come to this conclusion. Did FIRST market themselves wrong? I certainly got the memo.

Why is it an issue that some teams have the determination to build a solid robot? A regional winning robot? A World winning robot? I can't say I'm familiar about how 1114 goes about building their robots, but they build them well. So well, they're inspiring. The teams that win Worlds not only build robots that dominate the game, but they build teams that display FIRST's values. It's good to see that teams that take such abuse as this don't stoop to these teams levels. It's those teams that give FIRST it's image.

It's things like this that really lower the standards of this organization. If you don't like the way your team is run, change it. If you're not winning, you're doing something wrong. Determine WHY you're not winning, and reach the level of these great teams that are. They didn't get where they are now by booing their partners, or sleazy tactics such as attempting to injure another teams robot. They got where they are by years of work, innovation, and displaying FIRST's values.

Again, great post JVN. Good to see issues like this don't go unnoticed.

[ghostmachine360]

JVN, thank you for posting this; this is exactly the sentiment I've had for a while. JVN, Zack O, & rcmolloy, would you mind if I quoted some of what you've said here in a speech I'm making this weekend to the Peachtree Regional participants? These points here are so eloquently put & spot-on, I'm not sure I can put them in other words for myself.

-Kyle J.

[rcmolloy]

This just showed up right after I left the topic to check my PMs.

[Akash Rastogi]

In FIRST, ignorance is NOT bliss, it is the most detrimental thing that can happen to a team. Veterans and rookies alike, love to hate on the big dogs before learning about what a team is really all about.

Mentors AND students, especially those who have a lot of influence in their area, should make sure that those around them are well educated about each and every team before things like this escalate into more severe situations.

Snide remarks from upperclassmen and mentors piss me off the most. They should know better.

I urge everyone at their respective regional to educate the people around you. Show them what the benefits of having an elite team as your friend can be, I know that I have gained A LOT from the giants I look up to.

Make this competition about winning, not whining. Make it about learning about others, not hating on them.

[J93Wagner]

Your blog post was very thought provoking. Now I need to think and reflect on it some more...

[Arefin Bari]

John, it took a while to read through your blog; I read it over several times. I am truly disgusted by how some reacted towards Team 1114. This is simply ignorance.

I have encountered the same situation with a mentor this past weekend where I was told by him that team 233's students don't do a thing and it just seemed all engineer built. I simply asked him to watch the Pink team closely throughout the weekend. His view on the Pink team changed completely at the end.

I suppose until you see it for yourself, it is hard to believe what these students are capable of.

For some, the case is to jump to a conclusion right away... simply known as an ignorant. I wish some would take their time to just stop by one of the elite team's pit just for 15 minutes and ask, "How do you do this?"


... Oh, and just in case any of those people who put any of these elite teams down, why don't you try to asking them to share their ideas and designs with you? You will be surprised by how much help you will get from them.

[Colin P]

The Robowranglers consistently put out great robots, and more importantly, great students. Anyone who falls under the impression that powerhouse teams have mentor-built robots needs only to look at the students for their answer.

I haven't been in FIRST for a very long time, but it's pretty easy to notice who's doing the work on a robot. 148, 1114, 217 are all teams that fall under criticism for having mentor built robots, but I have NEVER seen a mentor from any of these teams even touch the robots at competition. Meanwhile, many "midrange" veteran teams have packs of mentors taking care of everything. It's easy to point fingers and try to draw attention away from yourself. I'll admit, I once did this as a student.

I'm now trying to build my team with a stricter set of values. FIRST isn't about acting kindly to everyone in an attempt to be a gracious professional. There shouldn't be any acting involved. We know we aren't going to be the best team out there, but we try to do our best. We applaud those who also do the best they can, especially if their best is better than ours.
Teams need to stop worrying about who's doing what on other teams and concentrate on doing the best they can with what they have and keeping the students in charge and in line.

[Grim Tuesday]

Let me preface this by saying that I DO think less of teams like 1114 for not building their own robot. I will always be more proud of, and cheer more for a student built robot. However, except in the context of this thread, I would never say it. The level of dedication that teams like 1114, 217, 2056, 148 etc... is just as much as other teams. They just put it in other areas. What is ridiculous is that people would do such rude things as mentioned at Pittsburgh regional. No matter how I feel about how they built their robot, they still designed it, and deserve the award. I am utterly sickened by something like this going on in FIRST. If they were the ones behind the robot, and inspiring it, then they are deserving. On the other hand, if they sat by while other people made their robot, then I have no respect for them. I have a feeling it is not the second option.

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Let me preface this by saying that I DO think less of teams like 1114 for not building their own robot. I will always be more proud of, and cheer more for a student built robot.

The problem is that the students DO build their own robot. They don't just sit there while their mentors do all the work. They collab with them and then designs are made up. Students do all the dirty work with mentors giving them the tools and help if they need it.

Just because the team has leverage to waterjets, cnc machines, lathes, and mills doesn't mean the robot isn't student built.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

The problem is that the students DO build their own robot. They don't just sit there while their mentors do all the work. They collab with them and then designs are made up. Students do all the dirty work with mentors giving them the tools and help if they need it.

Just because the team has leverage to waterjets, cnc machines, lathes, and mills doesn't mean the robot isn't student built.

Exactly my point. I don't think that 1114 is a team that would do that. Therefore, I don't think poorly of them.

But if a team did do that, then I would.

[Barngirl425]

Being on an entirely student run team, the student/ mentor relationship is important and I wish my team had it but we do not. But that isnt what matters. In life there are always going to be people with more resources, money and help then you. All that matters is can you over come it? Yes you may have to have longer work hours and yes your bot might me simpler then others but can it go out and compete? And are people learning while building it? If yes then there are no issues.

Having worked with 1114 at Brunswick Eruption last year what I saw of them was all positive. They were professional and so organized it made everything easier. I saw students working on the bot and mentors over seeing and directing them the way it should be. Congratulations team 1114 and Good Luck to you in the future!

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Let me preface this by saying that I DO think less of teams like 1114 for not building their own robot. I will always be more proud of, and cheer more for a student built robot.

How can you say that when you haven't been to their shop? A 100% student robot means that they are using their coaches and mentors to sign the paper work instead of using the to their fullest potential and learning from the experts which is the goal of FIRST.

[O'Sancheski]

This is unbelievable. I volunteered on Curie at championships last year (the field that the Simbots were on) and ever time they had a match I was amazed with the calmness of the drive team. These team members of 1114 are some of the best students that I have seen at a FIRST event. I am ashamed to say I am part of something where people treat fellow peers in that way.

I hope that the students and mentors of the teams that took part in those comments and actions will read this thread and realize how ridiculous they are and get their act together.